QUOTE(Elryn @ Mar 3 2005, 04:38 PM)
Oh good, another useless lecture. Thankyou for pointing out that illusions can seem real in a whole paragraph. You could just say that, however. Again, this is something I would never dream of arguing with you.
Also, hold on a moment. Before you start arguing that high magic is somehow a part of cosmic magic, I'll just point out that while the ritualized training of High Magic is required for learning cosmic magics... don't forget that Serenwilde warriors can also choose it.
Also, hold on a moment. Before you start arguing that high magic is somehow a part of cosmic magic, I'll just point out that while the ritualized training of High Magic is required for learning cosmic magics... don't forget that Serenwilde warriors can also choose it.
You read whatever you want to read from what someone says (you for sure think the same of me). Nonetheless, I'll keep bothering to reply to your posts. But I must make a point of reference here. I've been claiming that the forests on Celestia aren't real forests, just an illusion an exact representation of a forest.
Also, what I was implying of High Magic, if you care to read carefully, was that in order to lear Cosmic you needed to learn Hig Magic because it is more intellectual and sophisticated than Low Magic, meaning that it is the necessity to engage on a study of completely higher and more elevated powers. Meaning, that only through High Magic can you conviniently get a connection with Cosmic. At the expense of endevouring in the intese intellectual High Magic, you forsaken the more primitive aspects of magic incarnated in Low Magic that revolves on the life force of creatures and plants. As a Druid, that you call yourself, learn High Magic and then try to learn Nature magic.
Also ask a Nihilist to learn Cosmic Magic by learning Low Magic first.
If there is an order of things is because it means something. Not just good show. Low Magic: more attuned with Nature and emotions and intuition. High Magic: more attuned with ritualized acts and higher states of thoughts, deeply intellectual. Perfect vessel for studying cosmic.
What you fail to see is that the Serenguard warriors, my archetype aren't as strictly bonded to a face of Nature as the wiccans and druids.
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I think this 'game' you play of connect, as you call it, is going a little far. Illusions aren't an aspect of cosmic magic. As far as I know, only Elemental mages can learn in it, and they don't specialize in cosmic.
No, I didn't fail to see them. I just thought we had silently agreed that our argument was limited to Cosmic and Nature and it's true representatives in Prime. For Cosmic: Guardians, for Nature, Wiccans and surprisingly Druids, too.
Ah, don't jump to conclusions Erlyn. If I said anything about Illusions was that it clearly embodied the aspect of Cosmic magic of Shaping Creation, even if it just an illusion that can be embedded into the deepest of your brain. Coincidentally enough, Cosmic planes being able to toy with the frabrics manipulation (shape, reshape, transform) are easily capable ot creating something that seems real but it isn't: your forest.
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Yep, agreed. And every one of those pieces of evidence is explained by the Taint. Not one applies to an untainted cosmic plane.
Aye, much like the fae are immortal.
Aye, much like the fae are immortal.
You agree? Amazing. Now, tell me is Cosmic (IN GENERAL) is Anathema to each other why would Celestia be any difference? Just because you hate the taint and is convinient to you to place the Tainted Cosmic plane as the bad guy. Wrong. Cosmic+Nature= no match at all whatsoever.
Are the fae immortal? I thought Rowena used to kill them, I thought that the fae stopped living in Ethereal Glomdoring thanks the the bad hazardous influence on them. Didn't the fae ask for help because Nature was being ravaged. And that the totems are inhabited by spirits that die when the totems are destroyed. This shows you that fae are "immortal" as long as Nature is preserve. Nature dies, for example a tree and forests, the fae die. So the immortality is just translated to: an existance deeply connected to nature, which can be terminated whenever Nature is killed. Serenwilde forest chopped down, the Ethereal Serenwilde will die, along with the fae.
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Or, coincidentally, the cities that were power-hungry and expansionist enough to find the Cosmic planes in the first place, then continued on that path.
Also, the Taint isn't cosmic. Sorry.
Also, the Taint isn't cosmic. Sorry.
Well. The cities saught to expand until after they found the Cosmic planes. And their expansion was to bring everyone under the Light. The Empire of Celest was emissaries of the Light, just as Magnagora became to be an Emissary of the Taint.
The Taint is more cosmic than Elemental and Natural.
The place where the Taint had more powerful holding was in Shallamar, a place it modified COMPLETELY and was also the portal for the Taint to link to Elemental, all the way onto Prime. So, at present time, the Taint's stronghold is COSMIC, unless you are going to argue Nil isn't Cosmic plane.
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Aye, the Supernals and Demon Lords will pervert the fae that are brought to them into creatures that will serve them. This shows they are both willing to disregard the sanctity of Nature. However, I believe you can lead a fae to a cosmic plane without any particular magic spell to preserve them. Thus, cosmic planes themselves aren't deadly to the fae.
The fae are perverted by the Supernals/Emmanations. They are changed from what they are into something new: faes are no longer faes they are destroyed. Their translation to be able to be in Cosmic for a period of time is thanks to the magic of those who are luring the fae. Or else the fae wouldn't go there, because they would die.
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Oh, so only you should draw conclusions that suit you from your reasoning? It doesn't apply anywhere else? Got it.
No, you are free to draw conclusions, but not ones as absurd as the one showcased above. See? You are too easy to jump into conclusions. Much like a child, that grabs a sentence, modifies it's interpretation to whatever suits them and then builts their arguments from there. By the way, you surely need lectures, it seems... Or at least I should go defining the concepts I use when talking to you, so you don't keep on going pointing apparent "contradictions" and make assumptions regarding what I'm talking.
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WHY IS CELESTIA AN ILLUSION BUT ELEMENTAL/ETHEREAL/NIL PLANES AREN'T?
Read the following:
QUOTE( Desdemona)
Now, considering that the Basis for this type of Magics is extended onto the Cosmic planes... Take a look at what is stated about the Cosmic planes: They are made out vibrations embodying a certain philosophy (state of mind, ideas and beliefs). That every being in the Cosmic plane is made out of different components than other planes and all have different properties. The plane of Celestia, which was the subject of our discussion, is made up of liquid power. The Celestials are immortal beings that are the embodiments of the Light, thusly they took a form to represent their philosophy.
Cosmic Magic toys with the fabrics of creation, meaning that through its manipulation of creation it is capable of shaping creation at whim ignoring rules/guidelines.
A perfect embodiment of this face of Cosmic Magic is Illusions, where a person is capable of toying with your perceptions or with your very mind by creating illusions that to you they may seem real.*
Now, it is clear (at least to me, of course you will argue otherwise), that the Cosmic is higher plane of a more specialized energy, completely different in property to Prime/Ethereal(Nature). Also, it is made up of completely different properties that what is find in prime, in case of Celestia it is liquid power. The Cosmic planes embody a philosophy, and that philosophy is embodied by the creatures that inhabit Cosmic. This same philosophy is the one in charge to channel into the mind of mortals (Guardians, adherents of the Light/Taint), and teach their their philosphy bestow upon them powers native to the nature of Cosmic planes. Now, this followers are guardians, protectors and worshippers of those powers, and bring them into Prime emmulating and retaning the inherent properties of cosmic magic: manipulating the very fabrics of creation.
Cosmic Magic toys with the fabrics of creation, meaning that through its manipulation of creation it is capable of shaping creation at whim ignoring rules/guidelines.
A perfect embodiment of this face of Cosmic Magic is Illusions, where a person is capable of toying with your perceptions or with your very mind by creating illusions that to you they may seem real.*
Now, it is clear (at least to me, of course you will argue otherwise), that the Cosmic is higher plane of a more specialized energy, completely different in property to Prime/Ethereal(Nature). Also, it is made up of completely different properties that what is find in prime, in case of Celestia it is liquid power. The Cosmic planes embody a philosophy, and that philosophy is embodied by the creatures that inhabit Cosmic. This same philosophy is the one in charge to channel into the mind of mortals (Guardians, adherents of the Light/Taint), and teach their their philosphy bestow upon them powers native to the nature of Cosmic planes. Now, this followers are guardians, protectors and worshippers of those powers, and bring them into Prime emmulating and retaning the inherent properties of cosmic magic: manipulating the very fabrics of creation.
(*) In reference to Cosmic Magic. To summerize to you, what I'm trying to say, is that Cosmic is very powerful force made out of vibrations, emodying a philosphy with completely different property found from any other plane of existance. Cosmic, being able to manipulate reality, and shape things, can create illusions, or make things that you may think they are real. But the true components of Cosmic will always be some sort of energy, in the case of Celestia Liquid Power. Now, elemental is a pure state of an specific element. Regarding Nil, because it is Cosmic, it is also perfectly capable of reshaping it's self and adopting an image that may seem rea: capable of also creating some sort of illusion.
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Yes, Nature is beyond me but you have it down pat, right? If only I could spend years in contemplation of those two magic cards I might have a fraction of the understanding you have gained of ecology. Quite frankly, I'm getting tired of your snide insults. If you can't defend your views without endlessly repeating them regardless of what anyone says, then perhaps it is time to give them a critical review?
So, I say Nature primarily involves Life, but I'm wrong. You say Nature isn't Life repeatedly, that it is primarily struggle and death, but you never said that Nature has nothing to do with Life.
 And Nature isn't Creator and Destroyer, that would be Dynara and Magnora.
Yes, forests can be destroyed. But without intervention, they can live forever. And as I pointed out earlier, the fae are immortal.
So, I say Nature primarily involves Life, but I'm wrong. You say Nature isn't Life repeatedly, that it is primarily struggle and death, but you never said that Nature has nothing to do with Life.
 And Nature isn't Creator and Destroyer, that would be Dynara and Magnora.Yes, forests can be destroyed. But without intervention, they can live forever. And as I pointed out earlier, the fae are immortal.
To be honest, if I may be arrogant... Yes, I feel like I have the concept of Nature more understanded than you. Those Magic cards only represent forces of Nature that ages of Mythology have always manifested... but if you wish to keep bringing up the Magic cards up, go ahead... Also, I repeat myself for the sole reason that you make the same counter arguments. Why else would I not repeat myself expanding and redifyining my arguments? The moment you stop arguing in circles, I'll do the same.
Yeah, like you read. Life is an inherent aspect of Nature, but this doesn't mean that Nature itself is Life. Nature is the prime force that enables things to live and exist. Just as that, it has as another inherent aspect: Death. But this doesn't make Nature Death, entirely. Also, Nature is Creator and Destroyer. You could easily say that Dynara (Shakti) Magnagora (Kali) embodied on Estara is Mother Earth, or that Estarra created the system that came to be Mother Nature: a whole system capable of regulation, independant and capable of reproducing and creating life, with the capacity of end said life in order to keep a balance in the system.
See? Here is more evidence of your grasp Nature. Forests don't leave for ever. Every moment a tree somewhere dies, they rot, a forest fire (they can occur naturally) may ignite, the weather may have drastic changes completely modifying an area, eruptions may be ignited, floods, droughts, there are so many phenomena that can destroy a foret or completely change it. But, because it is impossible to ignore human interaction, forests can also be chopped down. The fae are immortal as nature goes, Nature is ended the fae will die, and the fae can be killed as Rowena showed us in histories.
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Ok, first, what the hell? Where did I say that angels are part of nature because they are on prime? I used the fact they can exist happily on Ethereal/Prime as an example of how they -aren't- anathema to Nature itself.
No, the fae -weren't- always on prime. However, I can see how this could be an arguable point because there isn't complete information available. But the term 'manifesting physically' is equivalent to 'summoned from Ethereal'. The Ethereal realm is Nature's spiritual realm, and it is here that the Fae have been 'interacting with Nature all along', that is true. But the fae definitely weren't physically on prime until after Ellindel first contacted them, and then learned how to summon them physically.
No, the fae -weren't- always on prime. However, I can see how this could be an arguable point because there isn't complete information available. But the term 'manifesting physically' is equivalent to 'summoned from Ethereal'. The Ethereal realm is Nature's spiritual realm, and it is here that the Fae have been 'interacting with Nature all along', that is true. But the fae definitely weren't physically on prime until after Ellindel first contacted them, and then learned how to summon them physically.
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You completely were saying that angels are lingering in Prime, and that Prime doesn't attack them, so they are natural, at least what I understood you were saying. I am telling you that the ONLY reason they do this was because the guardians of the Cosmic planes summoned those creatures forth, thanks to their connction with the Cosmic planes. The creatures are manifested into any plane they travel... without changing their cosmic attributes, and without becoming intertwined with the planes they travel. And, again, I'm telling you... Cosmic and Nature are anathema to each other, everything on the skill lists shows that Cosmic doesn't respect Nature, that the cities of cosmic influence chose expansion at the expense of Nature, and that Gorgulu reacted wrongfully thanks to the impossible assimilation/amalgamation between Cosmic/Nature, because they are anathema to each other. They reject themselves.
Prime and Ethereal are sister planes, they are intrisically bonded with each other, and the fae have always lived within Nature. They have always been interacting with the life forces of Creatures, and with the phenomena of Nature. This spirit world, is made up of the spirits of living organism, and spirits of Nature. It was until Ellindel that the general population of Wiccans came to knew the exact existance of the fae. But they had always know of their presence within Nature. So yes, it was at this point, the fae, the spirits of the Earth, called Ellindel for help and Ellindel was able to transmute Ethereal to Prime.
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You know, after more consideration about your Celestial forest, and the fact that Ackleberry banished from the frabrics of Creation to who knows where... I've come up with this hyphothesis.
Maybe, just maybe, the forest of Ackleberry disappeared from Ethereal/Prime and normal reality but maybe it somehow ended within Celestia, enveloved by the energy of the plane and remaining static. I'll go to Celestia someday to see if this is possible. But this is just a hypothesis I had, until after remembering that Ackleberry disappeared... and asking myself where could it go? Still mantaining the possibility that if isn't Acklebbery it isn't a real forest then at all.
Edit: Made some modifications serious modifications.
So you read the site? I just skimmed through it and found it an easy read trying explain Nature and the "spiritual" world and other ramifications.
Good! Some people pay attention when I post sites.
QUOTE(Desdemona @ Mar 4 2005, 11:07 AM)
So you read the site? I just skimmed through it and found it an easy read trying explain Nature and the "spiritual" world and other ramifications.
Good! Some people pay attention when I post sites.Â
Good! Some people pay attention when I post sites.Â
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All I "read" were the pretty pictures.
meanie!Ah, no, Summer can READ just fine, it's the talking out loud she has difficulties with. 
You mean you have listening problems.
Yay for hijacks!
Yay for hijacks!
Which is why she's cheering for 'em, of course. (She's wrong about the listening thing, though. )
)