Magnagora is the new Celest

by Akraasiel

Back to Common Grounds.

Elryn2005-02-27 04:19:38
So Life isn't Nature, got it. What's left then? Nature is... green?

The Soulless transcend nature, much like the Elder gods do. I wouldn't call Fain a part of Nature, any more than I would Lisaera.
Desdemona2005-02-27 04:29:04
My point is obvious, Elryn. Ethereal/fae are inherent parts of primordial nature, just because some fools from ancient times didn't perceive them until later doesn't eliminate the fact.

Considering Nature, it is the problem with language, completely adding up to the original concepts. In the past Nature could only mean: material word and the surrounding phenomena as perceived by your senses, a virgin and primitive, unmanned (not artificial) state of existance. Then you could link Nature to the whole surrounding cosmos, infinity and all of creation be it physical or metaphysical, that which was perceived or not.

The fact is, that the Light may be a form of Life, but it is a form of life completely alien of Nature, completely different of nature to those things found within primordial prime plane.
Shiri2005-02-27 04:29:51
QUOTE(daganev @ Feb 27 2005, 05:15 AM)
Life is not Nature... sorry.

Unless you consider the soulless as part of nature.
61234



...sure it is. blink.gif
Elryn2005-02-27 04:37:36
QUOTE(Desdemona @ Feb 27 2005, 02:29 PM)
My point is obvious, Elryn. Ethereal/fae are inherent parts of primordial nature, just because some fools from ancient times didn't perceive them until later doesn't eliminate the fact.

Ok, look, I have no idea why you're bringing this up. I know all this and completely agree. You're not arguing with me.. huh.gif
QUOTE
The fact is, that the Light may be a form of Life, but it is a form of life completely alien of Nature, completely different of nature to those things found within primordial prime plane.
61242


The Light, (and I welcome any Celestian/Celestine to tell me I'm wrong based on their superior understanding), is a philosophy. Not an 'alien' force that is going to take little Nature rabbits and turn them into dangerous and twisted Light rabbits. It is just the teachings of the Supernals. These teachings may be at odds to Serenwilde's philosophy, they may even encourage actions that are dangerous to Serenwilde (and I hope they will eventually), but the Light in itself isn't some powerful unnatural force that is sweeping the basin.

Now, the supernals themselves? Sure, argue about whether they are 'alive' or not to your hearts content. But Light is just a teaching, its not anything more than that. Maybe when you say Light you really mean 'the Celestians'?
Desdemona2005-02-27 04:38:03
QUOTE(Elryn @ Feb 26 2005, 08:55 PM)
*sigh*

Look, Ethereal was foreign to the basin for most of the histories until recently.  Does that make it evil and anti-Life? 

Just because you generated an ooc philosophy that involves various planes being unnatural and not, doesn't mean everyone else has to follow it.  I can respect your opinion but still disagree.  It doesn't mean I haven't given this any thought, nor read the histories.

Celestia itself isn't unnatural.  It's just a plane of existence.  If people start wielding Celestial powers that make living creatures into undead horrors that contravene the laws of nature, then sure, they will be hated by the worshippers of Nature.  The supernals and their teachings I consider evil and revolting from a Serenwilde viewpoint because they corrupt and enslave the fae spirits (obviously only from my view).  But the godforsaken plane itself isn't a threat to nature.  Wielding cosmic threads that ACTUALLY EXIST isn't a threat to nature unless they are used against the cycles of nature.

Edited because I was referring to Daganev's post.
61209



The ooc philosophy is somewhat being applied into in-game philosophy, if you bother to read things up. Cosmic the anthenema of Ethereal, and so on.

Also, you brought up that Ethereal was unknown to most of the Basin, which my argument was saying that it wasn't. So, I doubt you agree with me. I said that Ethereal is the material of what the lifeforce of every being is made out of, how is my life force anti-life? Cannot be.

Celestia is unnatural as opposed to Nature/Prime/Ethereal. It is the refinement of energy and the existance of only said energy: Cosmic energy. The aim for said cosmos energy, you could say is to make Nature to take the same shape of the Supernals or similar. Meaning that it also wants to modify the very nature of Nature (makes sense to you, or should I go defining every concept I use?)

QUOTE(Elryn @ Feb 26 2005, 09:37 PM)
Ok, look, I have no idea why you're bringing this up.  I know all this and completely agree.  You're not arguing with me..  huh.gif

The Light, (and I welcome any Celestian/Celestine to tell me I'm wrong based on their superior understanding), is a philosophy.  Not an 'alien' force that is going to take little Nature rabbits and turn them into dangerous and twisted Light rabbits.  It is just the teachings of the Supernals.  These teachings may be at odds to Serenwilde's philosophy, they may even encourage actions that are dangerous to Serenwilde (and I hope they will eventually), but the Light in itself isn't some powerful unnatural force that is sweeping the basin.

Now, the supernals themselves?  Sure, argue about whether they are 'alive' or not to your hearts content.  But Light is just a teaching, its not anything more than that.  Maybe when you say Light you really mean 'the Celestians'?
61250



Think of the light as um... thought and nature as emotion. One is intuitive whereas the other is analitical. The Light is completely ALien to Nature, you don't see supernals parading around Nature, until the Celests discovered Elemental then deep within Elemental found the link to an even more pure form of energy: Light. Also, aside from the very different things as philosophies... I'll be straight on this Cosmic and Nature don't mix. If we did, you could kiss goodbye your physical self and instead live as only an irradiating mind in the Astral plane or somewhere around the cosmos... as pure energy.


Edit: Made a correction, something that imo didn't make sense.
Elryn2005-02-27 04:42:59
And I don't mean to be so argumentative, but I just get tired of so many snide and derogatory comments implying that I'm deliberately going against the histories, I haven't even read them, I'm twisted and stupid, and I should just go along with something that I completely disagree with.

Too much of it in one day = Elryn snaps eyepoke.gif

explode.gif
Elryn2005-02-27 05:02:46
QUOTE(Desdemona @ Feb 27 2005, 02:38 PM)
The ooc philosophy is somewhat being applied into in-game philosophy, if you bother to read things up. Cosmic the anthenema of Ethereal, and so on.

Show me where it says this, other than quoting Daganev. Read the events post carefully, it does not say this.
QUOTE
Also, you brought up that Ethereal was unknown to most of the Basin, which my argument was saying that it wasn't. So, I clearly do agree with me. I said that Ethereal is the material of what the lifeforce of every being is made out of, how is my life force anti-life? Cannot be.

Look at what I was responding to. I was being sarcastic. (Not really sarcastic... trying to point out a flaw in Daganev's argument, anyway.) I was using the common knowledge that of course the Ethereal is associated with Nature to show that you can't say a plane is unnatural because mortals didn't discover it immediately.
QUOTE
Celestia is unnatural as opposed to Nature/Prime/Ethereal. It is the refinement of energy and the existance of only said energy: Cosmic energy. The aim for said cosmos energy, you could say is to make Nature to take the same shape of the Supernals or similar. Meaning that it also wants to modify the very nature of Nature (makes sense to you, or should I go defining every concept I use?)

Yes, you need to explain where this ulterior motive of the Supernals comes from. If most people knew they wanted to turn Prime Plane into a version of Celestia, I think we'd have very different politics going on. And why do those poor mortals follow them? Do they realize they are just pawns, and will be completely converted to cosmic energy when the time is right?
QUOTE
Think of the light as um... thought and nature as emotion. One is intuitive whereas the other is analitical. The Light is completely ALien to Nature, you don't see supernals parading around Nature, until the Celests discovered Elemental then deep within Elemental found the link to an even more pure form of energy: Light. Also, aside from the very different things as philosophies... I'll be straight on this Cosmic and Nature don't mix. If we did, you could kiss goodbye your physical self and instead live as only an irradiating mind in the Astral plane or somewhere around the cosmos... as pure energy.
61252


I agree that the Celestial plane is a 'purer' plane in terms of higher vibrations of energy and what not. But to say that it is completely alien to Nature, and that if you follow the Light 'you can kiss goodbye your physical self'... I'm just not sure where you are taking it from. Perhaps you could provide some quotes from helpfiles/histories/other sources?
Desdemona2005-02-27 05:27:32
QUOTE(Elryn @ Feb 26 2005, 10:02 PM)
Show me where it says this, other than quoting Daganev.  Read the events post carefully, it does not say this.

Look at what I was responding to.  I was being sarcastic.  (Not really sarcastic...  trying to point out a flaw in Daganev's argument, anyway.)  I was using the common knowledge that of course the Ethereal is associated with Nature to show that you can't say a plane is unnatural because mortals didn't discover it immediately.

Yes, you need to explain where this ulterior motive of the Supernals comes from.  If most people knew they wanted to turn Prime Plane into a version of Celestia, I think we'd have very different politics going on.  And why do those poor mortals follow them?  Do they realize they are just pawns, and will be completely converted to cosmic energy when the time is right?

I agree that the Celestial plane is a 'purer' plane in terms of higher vibrations of energy and what not.  But to say that it is completely alien to Nature, and that if you follow the Light 'you can kiss goodbye your physical self'... I'm just not sure where you are taking it from.  Perhaps you could provide some quotes from helpfiles/histories/other sources?
61272





1/12/05
Magnagora embarked on a dangerous experiment to create new race of tainted fae. For almost a year, they were pitted against Serenwilde, but in the end they succeeded in infusing the Demon Lord Gorgulu with the essence of Spirit Moon and creating tainted fae. However, the experiment got out of control as cosmic and nature magics were anathema to each other. Though hundreds upon hundreds of tainted fae manifested and Magnagora grew in power as the Basin was slowly being tainted, Gorgulu began to devour the other Demon Lords. Finally, the Nihilists and Moondancers had to set aside their grudges and work together to destroy Gorgulu. In the end, the Moon Avatars grew in power and Gorgulu was slightly altered, much to the interest of the Nihilists.


Why would I want to quote Daganev? In fact, I have been rude enough as to not pay close attention to his posts. As far as I'm concerned my focus is directed towards you, because you counter my arguments. Also, read every help file out there: Cosmic planes, Faethorn realms, the files of the communes/cities/guilds/etc. and histories, to closer draw conclusions as why the philosophy of the light/taint are completely opposite or a deviation of nature/primordial/primitive us.


Light is made up ONLY of energy. Not earth,water,fire,wind,physical,tangiablility. You can say that Celest is a realm of mind completely metaphysical where your body has been adapted to visiit thanks to planar travel. Mortal mind is so easily to impress, therefore the power of suggestion can always have an impact on our brain. Why would Lusternia be any different? Mortals see a realm of complete energy, they are fascinated, adopt the ideology of said realm of energy and wish to emulate such ideology on their place of origin... they translate that energy into the primordial, introducing a completely alien agent, something that wasn't inherent in Nature once. Also, when did I said they are pawns? Even so, you could say that humankind is pawn of Nature if you beleive that destiny is your fate: live-grow-die, and that the phenomena of Nature will shape your life. This doesn't makes us pawns of Nature, just it's sons, and the Light you could consider tha it is only the object of the musings of those from Celest. Take notice how city construction was promoted greatly after people adopted this comsic philosophies. Construiction of cities at expense of nature? Unnatural and an utter abomination as much as a Seren should be concerned.

Where I base myself saying that you could kiss your physical self goodbye if you were to become a being of light? A being of light is made up of only Light, not composts/constitutes/elements.
Elryn2005-02-27 05:46:03
1/12/05
Magnagora embarked on a dangerous experiment to create new race of tainted fae. For almost a year, they were pitted against Serenwilde, but in the end they succeeded in infusing the Demon Lord Gorgulu with the essence of Spirit Moon and creating tainted fae. However, the experiment got out of control as cosmic and nature magics were anathema to each other.

QUOTE(Elryn @ Feb 27 2005, 02:14 PM)
Edit: And as I've said before, the event proved you couldn't mix the necromancers tainted cosmic magics with the nature magick inherent in the fae. This whole plane theory is a bit more of a stretch.
61232


Also, you could say that it's Gorgulu's magic and Moon Spirit's magic that mix, not the planes themselves.

QUOTE(Desdemona)
Also, read every help file out there: Cosmic planes, Faethorn realms, the files of the communes/cities/guilds/etc. and histories, to closer draw conclusions as why the philosophy of the light/taint are completely opposite or a deviation of nature/primordial/primitive us.

I have. Yes, the philosophies of the light and tainted organizations are against ours. Excellent, we're making progress. smile.gif But it is the philosophy of the Light that causes Celest to be at odds with Serenwilde. Its not that Celestia is anathema to Nature. A tree doesn't just burst into flames and wither when the teachings of the Light are read to it. Otherwise we would be in trouble.

QUOTE(Desdemona)
Light is made up ONLY of energy. Not earth,water,fire,wind,physical,tangiablility. You can say that Celest is a realm of mind completely metaphysical where your body has been adapted to visiit thanks to planar travel. Mortal mind is so easily to impress, therefore the power of suggestion can always have an impact on our brain. Why would Lusternia be any different?

You are applying OOC beliefs to Lusternia. Its different in the same way that Wiccans don't abide by the threefold law, and that paladins don't go on crusades to find a holy grail that was the cup of Jesus. Lusternia = fantasy world. Based in reality, of course, but not identical. Do you still play as a character in Lusternia?

QUOTE(Desdemona)
Mortals see a realm of complete energy, they are fascinated, adopt the ideology of said realm of energy and wish to emulate such ideology on their place of origin... they translate that energy into the primordial, introducing a completely alien agent, something that wasn't inherent in Nature once.

The ideology is alien to Nature? Nature doesn't say you must think one way or another. If you mean Celestial magics... well, I admit I don't know all the different abilities, and how they are described. Isn't it more that they use cosmic threads that are already in existence?
QUOTE(Desdemona)
Also, when did I said they are pawns? Even so, you could say that humankind is pawn of Nature if you beleive that destiny is your fate: live-grow-die, and that the phenomena of Nature will shape your life. This doesn't makes us pawns of Nature, just it's sons, and the Light you could consider tha  it is only the object of the musings of those from Celest. Take notice how city construction was promoted greatly after people adopted this comsic philosophies. Construiction of cities at expense of nature? Unnatural and an utter abomination as much as a Seren should be concerned.

Again, you are talking about the effects of a philosophy. These effects are bad for Nature, totally in agreement. But bring a cherub down to prime and see if the grass withers and dies at its touch. That would mean cosmicness itself is anathema to Nature. Are there any gardens in Celestia? I sure hope not. Because Nature would scream and die if it got close to a cosmic plane, right?
QUOTE
Where I base myself saying that you could kiss your physical self goodbye if you were to become a being of light? A being of light is made up of only Light, not composts/constitutes/elements.
61277


So why aren't Celestians these beings? Why can I touch things in Celestia? You must remember not to extrapolate too much from the terms themselves. Yes, it is a realm of Light... but it is not literally an entire realm of light particles/waves.
Eldanien2005-02-27 05:51:47
Compassion, Wisdom, Justice, Valor and so forth, yeah. Oh, and a very strong dislike for the force that pulled the Holy Emanations from the same (or similar, no telling for sure) goals. Unnatural? Anathema to Nature?

The closest thing I could find to Light being opposed to Nature is Raziela wanting to convert fae into celestial beings.

This is about about as unnatural as... hrm... Narsrim. Nature guy, decides to adopt . He's no less a Nature guy, is he?

I'd think some/most Serenwilders would be happy that Fae are growing, finding themselves on paths of what would generally be considered goodly virtues, and perhaps see this as a Good Thing ™.

This is about as silly as Serenwilders being opposed to people following the Goddess of Artistic Works, Faithfulness, Good Will, and... oh yeah, Compassion. You might know her as Isune.

I don't see it as unnatural, but rather, fomenting competition for a power income between the two nations. What I see: Two nations desire the oil fields in one nation's back yard. Two nations have different -but not opposing- viewpoints. They -do- have a brief period of turbulence in the far past that almost no one around now was alive to witness.

At least, that's what I see. It's all about the power loss, though I can't blame people too much for seeing that aspect and letting it decide their viewpoint - it's a very easy thing to do in Lusternia.

Note: I don't want to see Celest and Serenwilde allied. On good terms is fine, great, even fun for me. But certain things just don't make sense to me, such as those things I just mentioned. Aside from the recent fae-killing (which marvelously upset relations in a good way that really annoyed the frick out of me - a sign that this game is worth playing, when the emotions are so juicy), the Serenwilde and Celest hating each other makes about as much sense as... oh, pick two RL nations who were at war a couple of hundred years ago but haven't had much in the way of conflict since. I can pretend, but that's stretching it a bit far. Basic human (er, mortal) nature is something I don't want to pretend works in a way different than it does in the real world.
Desdemona2005-02-27 06:24:52
QUOTE(Elryn @ Feb 26 2005, 10:46 PM)
1/12/05
Magnagora embarked on a dangerous experiment to create new race of tainted fae. For almost a year, they were pitted against Serenwilde, but in the end they succeeded in infusing the Demon Lord Gorgulu with the essence of Spirit Moon and creating tainted fae. However, the experiment got out of control as cosmic and nature magics were anathema to each other.


Also, you could say that it's Gorgulu's magic and Moon Spirit's magic that mix, not the planes themselves.


Think. Elryn. All SUpernals, Emmnations, etc... are embodiments of their cosmic nature. Completely attached to their cosmic home. Meaning: Beings of cosmic origin, made out of cosmic energy, that emmulate/depend on ther cosmic nature. What part of cosmic being anathema to each other don't you understand? Gorgulu is a shard of the cosmos, prinicipally that of Shallamar/Nihil. Gorgulu was killed because he was out of control as a result of the experiment, no?

QUOTE
You are applying OOC beliefs to Lusternia.  Its different in the same way that Wiccans don't abide by the threefold law, and that paladins don't go on crusades to find a holy grail that was the cup of Jesus.  Lusternia = fantasy world.  Based in reality, of course, but not identical. Do you still play as a character in Lusternia?
Again, you are talking about the effects of a philosophy.  These effects are bad for Nature, totally in agreement.  But bring a cherub down to prime and see if the grass withers and dies at its touch.  That would mean cosmicness itself is anathema to Nature.  Are there any gardens in Celestia?  I sure hope not.  Because Nature would scream and die if it got close to a cosmic plane, right?




You've already argued about me appling ooc beliefs to Lusternia. Tell me, can you completely nullify or deny that some things of Lusternia aren't fundamented on ooc beliefs? Also, take notice that my arguments around here, on this very thread has been completely based on in-game material, and my reasoning. Meaning that I've bothered to try connect a puzzle and I'm expressing my results. Also, the Paladins have engaged on a crusade to expand the Light/protect the Light and their own search of the Holy Grail: the Light/Celest plane, that which they consider most perfect. Also, you could consider angels as what... being a ball of energy manifested by the incantations of their summoners, not necessarily connecting with Nature. Hey, the forest supposedly acted wrong towards demons, didn't they? They might act the same with angels someday. I'd avoid further discussion about angels as I still have to probe one.


QUOTE
So why aren't Celestians these beings?  Why can I touch things in Celestia?  You must remember not to extrapolate too much from the terms themselves.  Yes, it is a realm of Light... but it is not literally an entire realm of light particles/waves.
61283



You can touch things in Celest because Planar travel helps your constitution to get characteristics similar to those of the plane you are traveling. Also, Celestia is a realm of Light "liquid" light.
Elryn2005-02-27 11:18:03
I wonder if one of the Divine could settle this matter once and for all? Are the histories a little poorly written, or is it instead the events post?

Are the cosmic planes anti-Nature?
Daganev2005-02-27 11:49:22
As this topic is such a highjack, I would suggest sending a PM to Estarra.
Estarra2005-02-27 18:29:15
QUOTE(Elryn @ Feb 27 2005, 04:18 AM)
I wonder if one of the Divine could settle this matter once and for all?  Are the histories a little poorly written, or is it instead the events post?
61415



I don't think the histories are poorly written. mad.gif

QUOTE(Elryn @ Feb 27 2005, 04:18 AM)
Are the cosmic planes anti-Nature?


I don't know. Only one way to find out.... waggle.gif
Jack2005-02-27 18:56:58
Owing to the whole Gorgulu and tainted fae thing, I'm going to have to assume that the Cosmic planes are very anti-nature.
Elryn2005-02-27 21:02:21
QUOTE(Estarra @ Feb 28 2005, 04:29 AM)
I don't think the histories are poorly written.  mad.gif

Neither do I, neither do I...
QUOTE(Estarra)
I don't know. Only one way to find out.... waggle.gif
61703


Ask Elryn? tongue.gif

But seriously, there is a forest in Celestia...
peace.gif
Silvanus2005-02-27 22:26:09
There is a forest in Magnagora also.
Elryn2005-02-28 00:05:46
A healthy, living forest? Odd. Are you sure it isn't tainted and twisted?
Silvanus2005-02-28 00:07:58
CODE


The stars twinkle in the clear night sky. The path is shady here as it leads in
from the courtyard to the south. Large cages stand in the open air here, some
tall enough to contain full-grown trees. The cages all have similar, but varied
woodland environments to accomodate the many different animals. The cages are
each home to a number of animals that are identified by wooden plaques with
paintings of each creature next to a description of the it. Outside of the
cages there are many more trees planted, lining the path as it leads to an area
with picnic benches to the southwest. A statue of a carnivorous rabbit stands
here, memorializing her noble spirit. A sigil in the shape of a small,
rectangular monolith is on the ground. Chained to a post, a carnivorous rabbit
gazes up at you with large doleful eyes. A filthy gutter mutt meanders here,
sniffing the ground.
You see exits leading south and southwest.
2579h, 3056m, 2102e, 10p, 11789en, 14180w exk-nw

There is no exit in that direction.
2579h, 3056m, 2102e, 10p, 11795en, 14180w exk-sw

Picnicking ground.
The stars twinkle in the clear night sky. A sigil in the shape of a small,
rectangular monolith is on the ground. A statue of Leah stands here,
memorializing her noble spirit. A filthy gutter mutt meanders here, sniffing
the ground.
You see exits leading northeast and northwest.
2579h, 3056m, 2102e, 10p, 11793en, 14180w exk-l

Picnicking ground.
The stars twinkle in the clear night sky. The zoo path winds through this shady
open ground on its way from the woodland exhibits to the aviary. The occasional
shriek of captive birds echoes from the northwest, interrupting the quiet
rustling of tree leaves in the area. Off of the path, grass has been planted
under many large trees and a small pond stands in an open area, bright orange
fish visible under its surface. Countless picnic benches have been placed in
the shady areas under trees and near the pond where visitors to the zoo can
stop to eat, or just to sit and take in all of the excitement while their
children frolic near the water. The ground is littered with the remnants of the
last crowd's meals, which are cleaned up at night by the zoo staff but reappear
after the first group of the day passes through. A sigil in the shape of a
small, rectangular monolith is on the ground. A statue of Leah stands here,
memorializing her noble spirit. A filthy gutter mutt meanders here, sniffing
the ground.
You see exits leading northeast and northwest.
2579h, 3056m, 2102e, 10p, 11795en, 14180w exk-nw

The Aviary complex.
The stars twinkle in the clear night sky. A sigil in the shape of a small,
rectangular monolith is on the ground. A statue of an immense parrot stands
here, memorializing his noble spirit. Chained to a tree branch, an immense
parrot whistles to everyone who passes by.
You see a single exit leading southeast.
2579h, 3056m, 2102e, 10p, 11793en, 14180w exk-l

The Aviary complex.
The stars twinkle in the clear night sky. The roof of this building is three
times the height of a normal room to allow the captive birds room to fly
around. The room is split up into three large cages that are sectioned off by
thin, crisscrossing wire that does not block the view of the captive creatures.
The colourful birds chirp and shriek as they fly around in their cages, each
distinguished by a wooden plaque that has a painting and a short description of
the birds. A man sits in a corner by an easel, drawing below-average pictures
of the visitors and their children for a ridiculous price. The path leads off
to the southeast under an archway with a wooden carving of a bird on it. A
sigil in the shape of a small, rectangular monolith is on the ground. A statue
of an immense parrot stands here, memorializing his noble spirit. Chained to a
tree branch, an immense parrot whistles to everyone who passes by.
You see a single exit leading southeast.
Elryn2005-02-28 00:15:22
Meh, its a zoo with trees. I'm not sure I could quite call that a forest.

Magnagora is still on Prime, so one assumes that providing you can keep the taint out, I suppose a garden could be cultivated there. Doesn't make much sense to me why you would have one, but it could happen.

The valley in Celestia is a full-fledged forest though.