Magnagora is the new Celest

by Akraasiel

Back to Common Grounds.

Daganev2005-02-28 22:11:26
I'm one of those people that sees game mechanics the same way a scientist sees Physics.

Game mechancis is the source of the roleplay. If the game mechanics do not support the theory or the roleplay, than its the same as if physics does not support a theory of reality.

In this, I exclude things that are obviously just issues with the code. i.e. a coin having an eye you poke or an arm sleeve you tug.

But when the game code allows for such things to be true or not, I believe the game mechanics over any "theory"

So yes, if the "forest" tag is not there, its not a forest. And in magic, illusions affect eveyone who sees the illusions, its not different for each person. Thats kinda the point of magic...
Elryn2005-03-01 00:27:58
Ah, so you don't want to acknowledge the description of any room as 'real' unless theres some coded proof, Daganev? That is unfortunate, but remember that this is a game that relies on some imagination... we can't expect every possible item or terrain to be explicitly coded. Also, you do realize if it was 'forest' environment we could plant forest herbs there and it would give Serenwilders an advantage on a plane they shouldn't have one on? The fact that it is Celestia should override its individual environment.

Regardless, let me summarise the for and against arguments for cosmic planes being anti-Nature that we've covered so far:

For:
- There's an events post that say cosmic and nature magics are anathema to each other.
- Although celestia is a plane of life, Nature has nothing to do with life.
- Although there is a vibrant rainforest in Celestia, its not set as explicit forest environment.
- Although all three planes were always in existence, the cosmic planes were the latest to be discovered, hence anti-Nature.
- Elemental planes and magics are perfectly in tune with Nature, but that extra step up to Cosmic is critical.
- Celestia is actually an optical illusion and only consists of light, and hence is anti-Nature.
- Light is trying to convert all of the Prime plane into energy, and is therefore anti-Nature.

Against:
- The histories say Celestia is a realm of life and healing, and Nature is life.
- Estarra says the histores are -not- poorly written.
- There is a vibrant rainforest in Celestia, coded or not.
- Light is a philosophy, it doesn't cause trees to burst into flames when they hear it, nor corrupt non-sentient creatures.
- There is nothing in the histories that says the Great Spirits or nature communes themselves had a problem with cosmic planes, other than that they thought the cities were going too fast and seeking too much power.
- The events post is open to interpretation, and was not defended by Estarra.
- No magic or skill based on cosmic planes (that are untainted) have any negative effects on the cycles of Nature. They don't have any positive effects either, they just don't have anything to do with it.

Please correct me if I've missed anything.

Anyway, the only argument for this theory that I acknowledge as rational is the events post. But even that is open to interpretation and debate. The arguments against it I find to be much more compelling.
Daganev2005-03-01 00:59:54
Life is not nature, because part of nature is Aslo Death.
Nature is cycles, its seasons, growth and death, prey and hunter, moon and stag. (offensive, defensive)

To always want things to stay alive is against nature. That is what Light says. Light says things should never die, unless they are Tainted and in that case they need to be completly destoryed, not just die.

Urlach, used necromancy pre-taint. Death is not anti-nature.

Highmagic and Lowmagic

you also missrepresneted most of the arguments making them sound silly.

Would you say Astral is a natural part of Nature? They have forests, rivers, even a human body. But Astral is completely corrupted by the Taint.... Which one is it?

And to clarify, if your in a Forested location, and it says there is a huge elm with a hole in it. I will say that in the game world that hole exists even if you can't use game mechanics to put objects in that hole. But when the room says its a desert, and no illusion is up.. no matter how big the tree in the room is, its a desert, its not a forest.

Elryn2005-03-01 01:11:42
Agreed, Nature includes death as well as life. Don't see how that makes Nature not Life at all.

And also agreed, unnatural life (ie undeath) is against the cycles of Nature. I'm not sure where the Light says everything must live forever.

If I misrepresented the arguments, clarify. They sound silly because I believe they are.

Astral doesn't have healthy, living forests. Take another look and maybe post a description here so we can see the natural forest on Astral.

You say that you can't go against game mechanics. I agree. But survey doesn't say its -not- a forest (as in your example by saying its a desert), it just says its part of Celestia, realm of light. Thus it isn't going against game mechanics at all to say its a forest.
Daganev2005-03-01 01:15:40
So only healthy living forests are forests?

Serenwilde suddenly becomes not part of nature during winter?

Let me say this again... Urlach... Pre taint.... used undead people.

Raziel is fairly anti nature, anti cycle to me.

There is no place on Celestia that encourages the death of anything.

Elryn2005-03-01 01:16:59
And that would be anti-Nature. What does that have to do with cosmic planes or magic? Another red herring?

Edit: And forests don't die during winter. Or become undead. Or become twisted and unnatural.
Unknown2005-03-01 01:17:44
Undeath in my opinion, is a natural state in Lusternia, unlike the other realms. Many people brought over preconceived notions that undeath was necessarily unnatural and anti-nature. No, I say, it is natural and not in conflict with nature.
Daganev2005-03-01 01:18:00
Its a COSMIC plane.... that is ANTI NATURE..... what red herring?

Many plants DO die during winter... HIBERNATION...... The plants DIE!
Elryn2005-03-01 01:21:10
QUOTE(daganev @ Mar 1 2005, 11:15 AM)
Let me say this again... Urlach... Pre taint.... used undead people.
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What does that have to do with cosmic planes or magics?

And of course things die in winter. Things die all the time. Explain what point you're trying to make.
Daganev2005-03-01 01:30:04
You seem to be implying that the Taint does things that are against Nature, but the Light does not.

I havn't seen anything the Taint does that is against nature.

Taint is just speeded Evolution. to use OOC terms.

You said, forests don't die during winter, I was showing that they do.

See, I'm not going to argue that Necromancy fits in well with nature, because its based on the Cosmic plane of Ni, and the Nil lords. However, its just as much against nature as Celestia is.

in Nature you have BOTH life and death. In Nil you have death, in Celestia you have life. Each pushes only one aspect, so both can seem to "fit" with nature, but both also "go against it." A cute gurgling baby is just as disgusting to a being from nil, as a twisted three armed, one eyed, 4 horned baby is to a person from Celestia.

It just so happens that we don't normally empathise with the whole Nil dimension of the world. So it makes it harder to explain.

Notice the event post did not say, "The experiment went arry because the Taint and Nature are anethema to eachother" They said "Cosmic and Nature"
Elryn2005-03-01 01:38:34
And yet you haven't provided any evidence for my summary being incorrect, instead focusing on minor quibbles.

If Taint is speeded evolution, and completely la de dah snuggly with nature... why did ALL THREE nature communes see it as horrible and evil and bad? Why didn't they just go, oh look! Yay! Nature is evolving faster than normal! Praise Kethuru! Why didn't they scream and cower, run around in circles and try to blink themselves out of existence when the Empire starting following the Light?

As a side note to your empathy comment, we also tend to see death as an opposing state to life, which is much to do with the common spiritual beliefs of most of the world. That is, you can -be- dead. Personally, that is against my own thoughts, but it is a vital part of Lusternia.

Anyway, your argument now is that celestia and nil represent two aspects of NATURE???

Daganev2005-03-01 01:40:55
allright, if your not going to look at my arguments as a whole, I see no reason in discusing this.

I really don't feel like writing a 3page essay every post.

Do the human populations in X-men ever go.. oh yay I love that? No, people hate change and the unkown that is forced on them, no matter what is doing the changing.
Elryn2005-03-01 01:43:42
QUOTE(daganev @ Mar 1 2005, 11:40 AM)
allright, if your not going to look at my arguments as a whole, I see no reason in discusing this.
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I'd settle for you actually addressing the topic as a whole, without redirecting the discussion into a host of unrelated areas. How about just reading over my summary and pointing out where I went wrong?
Drago2005-03-01 01:51:06
For:
- There's an events post that say cosmic and nature magics are anathema to each other.<- Sounds right to me
- Although celestia is a plane of life, Nature has nothing to do with life.<- See my point below
- Although there is a vibrant rainforest in Celestia, its not set as explicit forest environment.<- Sounds right to me
- Although all three planes were always in existence, the cosmic planes were the latest to be discovered, hence anti-Nature.<- From what i've seen, the cosmic planes take on a certain aspect of nature to the extreme. Celest is about life and healing, whereas Nil seems to be a lot more based around death and corruption, all four of which are aspects of nature.
- Elemental planes and magics are perfectly in tune with Nature, but that extra step up to Cosmic is critical.<- I don't think so, but they're definatly closer to nature then cosmic is.
- Celestia is actually an optical illusion and only consists of light, and hence is anti-Nature.<- Sounds right to me
- Light is trying to convert all of the Prime plane into energy, and is therefore anti-Nature.<- Sounds right to me

Against:
- The histories say Celestia is a realm of life and healing, and Nature is life.<- True, however the events post stated that "Cosmic and Nature can't mix", therefore it could be said that Celestia's life and healing are different to nature's. Of course, Daganev's point about Celestia JUST being about life, whereas nature is about a balance between life and death, still stands.
- Estarra says the histores are -not- poorly written.
<- Sounds right to me
- There is a vibrant rainforest in Celestia, coded or not. <- no idea
- Light is a philosophy, it doesn't cause trees to burst into flames when they hear it, nor corrupt non-sentient creatures.<- Sounds right to me, however, it still can't be said that the light wants the trees to remain as they are
- There is nothing in the histories that says the Great Spirits or nature communes themselves had a problem with cosmic planes, other than that they thought the cities were going too fast and seeking too much power.<- Sounds right to me
- The events post is open to interpretation, and was not defended by Estarra.<- Sounds right to me
- No magic or skill based on cosmic planes (that are untainted) have any negative effects on the cycles of Nature. They don't have any positive effects either, they just don't have anything to do with it. <- Sounds right to me
Daganev2005-03-01 01:55:21
I'v decided to be nice and do the threepage post thing anyways... My comments are in Italic bold. But are inside the quote.


QUOTE(Elryn @ Feb 28 2005, 04:27 PM)
Ah, so you don't want to acknowledge the description of any room as 'real' unless theres some coded proof, Daganev?  That is unfortunate, but remember that this is a game that relies on some imagination... we can't expect every possible item or terrain to be explicitly coded.  Also, you do realize if it was 'forest' environment we could plant forest herbs there and it would give Serenwilders an advantage on a plane they shouldn't have one on? The fact that it is Celestia should override its individual environment.

Regardless, let me summarise the for and against arguments for cosmic planes being anti-Nature that we've covered so far:

For:
- There's an events post that say cosmic and nature magics are anathema to each other.
- Although celestia is a plane of life, Nature has nothing to do with life.\\
Correction, Celestia has an aspect of Life to it, Nature also has an aspect of life to it, but that does not mean they are related or not anethema to eachother.  NATURE =! LIFE (Both oil and water are liquids doesn' t mean they mix well)

- Although there is a vibrant rainforest in Celestia, its not set as explicit forest environment.
This is not an argument for this is a counter argument against
- Although all three planes were always in existence, the cosmic planes were the latest to be discovered, hence anti-Nature.
I don't know anywhere this argument was made.  The argument I do know, is that such planes NEVER had an impact or connection the Prime before, thus they are alien to the Natural world. They are "supernatural" or "unnatural" "occultic" if you like.
- Elemental planes and magics are perfectly in tune with Nature, but that extra step up to Cosmic is critical.
- Celestia is actually an optical illusion and only consists of light, and hence is anti-Nature.
This is missunderstanind the point, its not an "optical illusion" its a translation issue.  You can't read greek, so I'll change greek letters to latin letters, but it doesn't mean the book is a "latin book"
- Light is trying to convert all of the Prime plane into energy, and is therefore anti-Nature.
Again, I havn't seen this point made, I've seen it argued that Light is trying to make the whole Basin follow the Light, reject the Great spirits of Nature, and create cities and intelectual constructions that destroy nature

Against:
- The histories say Celestia is a realm of life and healing, and Nature is life.
- Estarra says the histores are -not- poorly written.
- There is a vibrant rainforest in Celestia, coded or not.
This is an erranious point since it can not be proven or dissproven, its not a real argument.  That would be like saying, I am a pig because both pigs and myself contain organs
- Light is a philosophy, it doesn't cause trees to burst into flames when they hear it, nor corrupt non-sentient creatures.
- There is nothing in the histories that says the Great Spirits or nature communes themselves had a problem with cosmic planes, other than that they thought the cities were going too fast and seeking too much power.
HELP MUGWUMPS seems to suggest otherwise
- The events post is open to interpretation, and was not defended by Estarra. Nor was it refuted, how is that a point or argument for or against?
- No magic or skill based on cosmic planes (that are untainted) have any negative effects on the cycles of Nature.  They don't have any positive effects either, they just don't have anything to do with it.
This argument to me shows bias since it puts in (that are untainted)  There is no evidence that even Tainted magics have negetive or possitive affects on the cycles of nature

Please correct me if I've missed anything.

Anyway, the only argument for this theory that I acknowledge as rational is the events post.  But even that is open to interpretation and debate.  The arguments against it I find to be much more compelling.
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Elryn2005-03-01 01:59:05
QUOTE(Drago @ Mar 1 2005, 11:51 AM)
For:
- Although all three planes were always in existence, the cosmic planes were the latest to be discovered, hence anti-Nature.<- From what i've seen, the cosmic planes take on a certain aspect of nature to the extreme. Celest is about life and healing, whereas Nil seems to be a lot more based around death and corruption, all four of which are aspects of nature.

Perhaps, this is a possible interpretation... but I don't really see how being extrapolated natural forces would make cosmic planes violently anti-Nature.
QUOTE
- There is a vibrant rainforest in Celestia, coded or not. <- no idea

Its the room titled 'The valley of Blissful Rapture'. I posted it a bit earlier in the thread.
QUOTE
- Light is a philosophy, it doesn't cause trees to burst into flames when they hear it, nor corrupt non-sentient creatures.<- Sounds right to me, however, it still can't be said that the light wants the trees to remain as they are

Totally agreed. The goals of the Light will probably be quite detrimental to Nature (at least in my characters view).

A well-reasoned analysis though.

Edit: By the way, what do you think Drago? Are cosmic magics/planes anti-Nature?
Daganev2005-03-01 02:00:59
As for Estarra's statements on this topic, she said "find out"
So untill you try to do something with Celestia and Ethereal mixing, your not going to know if its magics has any affect.
Drago2005-03-01 02:17:03
I don't think they're specifically anti-nature, they're just taken one aspect of nature to such an extreme that they're no longer compatible.
Elryn2005-03-01 02:26:04
QUOTE(Daganev)
- Although celestia is a plane of life, Nature has nothing to do with life.\\
Correction, Celestia has an aspect of Life to it, Nature also has an aspect of life to it, but that does not mean they are related or not anethema to eachother.  NATURE =! LIFE (Both oil and water are liquids doesn' t mean they mix well)

Alright, I pretty much use Nature and Life interchangeably, but I can acknowledge you see Life as a minor part of Nature. I would be interested in how you actually define nature, because I have a feeling it would be completely alien to anything I would think. To say that the other half of Nature is death though, is wrong.

You can also use your argument above to prove pretty much anything isn't nature. Serenwilde has an aspect of life, but that doesn't mean it isn't anathema to Nature.
QUOTE( Daganev)
- Although all three planes were always in existence, the cosmic planes were the latest to be discovered, hence anti-Nature.
I don't know anywhere this argument was made.  The argument I do know, is that such planes NEVER had an impact or connection the Prime before, thus they are alien to the Natural world. They are "supernatural" or "unnatural" "occultic" if you like.

You said yourself that Cosmic planes were foreign to the basin, but the Ethereal had always been there. The discovery of all three planes occurs in the same page of the histories, with no great event between them. The only distinction one could make is the order in which they were discovered.
QUOTE(Daganev)
- Celestia is actually an optical illusion and only consists of light, and hence is anti-Nature.
This is missunderstanind the point, its not an "optical illusion" its a translation issue.  You can't read greek, so I'll change greek letters to latin letters, but it doesn't mean the book is a "latin book"

I thought you had argued that the forest in Celestia was an illusion? Or do you just mean that my eyes are registering a healthy rainforest identical to that which would grow on prime, but its really something that is so beyond mortal comprehension that forest is the only way I can process it? If that is the case, we really don't know anything about the cosmic planes - they could be anything in reality but we just can't handle the truth.
QUOTE
- Light is trying to convert all of the Prime plane into energy, and is therefore anti-Nature.
Again, I havn't seen this point made, I've seen it argued that Light is trying to make the whole Basin follow the Light, reject the Great spirits of Nature, and create cities and intelectual constructions that destroy nature

QUOTE(Desdemona)
The aim for said cosmos energy, you could say is to make Nature to take the same shape of the Supernals or similar. Meaning that it also wants to modify the very nature of Nature (makes sense to you, or should I go defining every concept I use?)


QUOTE
- There is a vibrant rainforest in Celestia, coded or not.
This is an erranious point since it can not be proven or dissproven, its not a real argument.  That would be like saying, I am a pig because both pigs and myself contain organs

Not sure why it can't be proven... its visible if you visit Celestia. Oh, unless you say that there is some mystical force that means you're not really seeing what you're seeing... I wish I could say that Glomdoring is just an illusion, and really, its all healthy forest but our eyes are just being tricked. rolleyes.gif
QUOTE(Daganev)
- There is nothing in the histories that says the Great Spirits or nature communes themselves had a problem with cosmic planes, other than that they thought the cities were going too fast and seeking too much power.
HELP MUGWUMPS seems to suggest otherwise

Um, how?
QUOTE(Daganev)
- The events post is open to interpretation, and was not defended by Estarra. Nor was it refuted, how is that a point or argument for or against?

Because the histories -were- explicitly defended.
QUOTE
- No magic or skill based on cosmic planes (that are untainted) have any negative effects on the cycles of Nature.  They don't have any positive effects either, they just don't have anything to do with it.
This argument to me shows bias since it puts in (that are untainted)  There is no evidence that even Tainted magics have negetive or possitive affects on the cycles of nature

Undeath is a big one. Also: Basic necrotic rituals involve draining and perverting the life force. Perverting the life force = anti-nature.
Daganev2005-03-01 02:26:24
by the way....
a·nath·e·ma ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-nth-m)
n. pl. a·nath·e·mas
A formal ecclesiastical ban, curse, or excommunication.
A vehement denunciation; a curse: “the sound of a witch's anathemas in some unknown tongue” (Nathaniel Hawthorne).
One that is cursed or damned.
One that is greatly reviled, loathed, or shunned: “Essentialisma belief in natural, immutable sex differencesis anathema to postmodernists, for whom sexuality itself, along with gender, is a ‘social construct’” (Wendy Kaminer).

anathema

n 1: a detested person; "he is an anathema to me" 2: a formal ecclesiastical curse accompanied by excommunication


anathema

Anathema, separated; set apart