It might just be me, but is there any point to the Supernals/Demon Lords/Avatars even -being- killable now? I'll admit to not having tested the changes, but they were already upgraded once and it made them nearly impossible to kill anyways. A team of 25 people, at least 16 of which were over level 60, got destroyed by Gorgulu. And then, when there is finally found a way to kill one that works a few times and takes a fair number of people with a good setup (It was not just Lazul and Narsrim pounding on him, trust me.) there's a kneejerk upgrade to their power yet again. Being serious here, Estarra, do you actually want us to be -able- to kill these things? If so, why just upgrade them everytime one dies? You'll just make them invincible entirely one day and then these quests you made for them will be entirely irrelevant.

I don't see it as a kneejerk reaction. Gorgulu was killed several times in a relatively short period and we took the time to examine the strategy used and weigh the balance. Obviously if 2 people with backup can kill the Demon Lords or Supernals with no one diying, this wasn't quite what we had in mind for the strength of these beings. It seems to me like you are making the kneejerk reaction, complaining about our thoughtfully considered adjustments without even knowing or testing what the rebalance was.

Anyway, I do indeed think these beings should be killable and so they are. It just won't be a walk through the park.

I say do away with the concept of killing them entirely.

If we are consistently presented with a particular face for how things are in the realm, and everytime we adjust to find a way to actually get things done, that face gets adjusted, how are we ever going to find a way to do things right? This is the exact type of thing that Magnagora was complaining about during the Seren war, with the introduction of all these random quests and elements to try to change the course of things. It's becoming an unseemly pattern of overcompensation. All that should have needed to be done was to make the Demon Lords and the Supernals say over the Nihilist/Celestine channels that they were being attacked, and that would be that. The only reason we've been able to kill Gorgulu so effectively is because there was better preparation and the Magnagorans, at least this last time, had no bloody clue it was happening until it was over.

Ah, pity you must suffer in a realm where the admin care about and respond to imbalances. I apologiize that our "overcompensation" causes you such grief.

You miss the point entirely. You respond to imbalances by creating new imbalances. Rather than fix problems, you create new ones such that the old ones are either destroyed or forgotten. It's frustrating. I'm sure it's not intentional, but that's how it feels. It's grand that you all are attentive, I think we'd all agree that it's some of the best Admin/Customer relations so far from an IRE product. All that aside, my opinion stands, and I've heard the same sentiments echoed from any number of individuals.

Sure. And then please make the angels/demons on Nil/Celestia unkillable too. And then please remove the Nihilists/Celestines guilds as their duty to protect their cosmic plane would be irrelevant because everything is unkillable anyway.

What new imbalances? Have you thoroughly tested the changes? Do variations on the strategy used previously not work?

Its like the karma + declare/defend. To reduce PK, you do two far out things instead of just one far out thing. The result is signatures that say "Die Karma die"

If they do, and you expect them to, why the change at all?

Yes indeed. The supposed simplification of the PK rules system down to a basic system has been replaced now by an even more complex and confusing system which many find unnecessary in the extreme.

The declare/defend system was in response to some concerns raised by players on how people get suspect when we put in Karma. Note that we did respond to several concerns, including getting suspect for defending others and getting suspect for protecting certain quest territories. Note that we also responded to concerns over the cost of changing archetypes.

We will continue to respond to player input. Obviously we will work to avoid the "squeaky wheel gets greased" syndrome and reach our decisions with forethought and consideration rather than just because one person or a group of people loudly complain. Sometimes these decisions are reached quickly, sometimes it takes longer, and many times the decision is not to make any change. Some decisions you may like, some you may not like, but hopefully you will trust our judgment that we are working towards the best game possible. If you don't trust our judgment or competence, I'm really not sure why you are here.

A suitable time for me to slip in; good job on the discernment changes.

It's obviously possible to tell when someone's making an aggressive action, since the system stops them unless you declare. Why not just make the agressive action auto-declare you to the person? Easy as pie.

That suggestion was brought up in the thread at the time, Ceres, but there was a reason it wouldn't work. Lemme go read back and I'll see if I can find it.

Silvanus- Its like the karma + declare/defend. To reduce PK, you do two far out things instead of just one far out thing. The result is signatures that say "Die Karma die"

In the defence of the administration, the arguably complex system of suspect/victim + karma came about as a result of many different pk experiences.

1. Admins decide to come up with an original way of keeping meaningless pk down. Hence the avenger.
2. As Lusternia as a game with depth, many problems arise. 'Why should I become a bully when defending my territory?' 'So and so is exploiting bugs/loopholes to get past avenger' etc etc. I may not have got individual problems entirely correct but a lot of people complained about the avenger.
3. Persistent pking increases. Administration devise karma in an attempt to keep it down.
4. Everyone rats on karma and still moans.
5. Administration adds declare/defend system, which tightens up many loose ends.
6. People moan. Still.

In my opinion the administration react to problems brought up as best as they can, as quickly as they can. Peoples constant trashing of their ideas doesn't help anyone. If I were a divine it would be taking all my RP not to zap unconstructive moaners.

EDIT: Forgot to mention declare/defend.

Then you forget about passive agression such as demesnes, firewalls, etc. You also would still be getting suspect for helping out your friend, and a ton of other things. There are alot of things that as a player, you just can't see. You must trust that we can see those things, and make the best choice for each situation.

When it comes to declare/defend you should be jumping for joy, all those original complaints about getting suspect for defending myself/my friend/my city/etc where solved in one quick blow. Yet you complain about it? It's not like we said hey, this is going to be complex, and drive them all crazy. We spent a great deal of time decided how to best solve that problem.

Some days I just sit and wonder why....

Buho, the problem people have with declare is things like fear, where you used to be able to scatter the players in a room, or trample, or beckon- you now need to declare each and every person you want to hit before you do it. It makes everything feel quite superficial and fiddly, which can spoil the flow/fluidity of combat scenarios.

And the alterative was worse. It's simply a matter of a simple trigger, that I know most of you already have.

Only if you are the aggressor on the prime plane against opponents in non-enemy territory. It's one of those sacrifices we had to make to smooth out the system.