I think people too often forget how the smallest details affect the larger picture.

The fact that Richter is a rogue has a great affect on many players, and even if you don't have control over your power and influence as much as you would like, it affects the game world to a large degree.

Richter may have an effect on some players or a large amount of players, but he doesn't have an effect on the daily basis of things (i.e. village influencing, power quests, commodity quests, etc.).

I would assume at this point, with my influence on the world not quite the strangle-hold he goes for at times, that if I just left, people would be over it rather quickly.

On the same note, Celest would not fall apart if Rhysus dissappeared. As I stated, I believe he was trying to discuss the larger political and game mechanics system, not point out individuals.

As Silvanus said, I don't have a huge influence on quests, and most single persons do not. I'm nothing compared to an entire city.

yes if you left not much would happen, but if all rogues left, Much would happen.

Like what, Daganev? We'd lose a -few- convenient traders, but...Richter's probably the most important one (that deepnight is kinda impressive), and he wouldn't cause much fuss if he vanished. Ehh. Maybe I just don't see what influences the rogues have on the economy, since they don't participate in the power things (as a rule), the gold market is blah as Rhysus says, and I don't think they'd have THAT much effect on the comms trade...what am I missing?

Rogues buy and sell things too. Yeah, and credits as well.

to list a few things Rogues allow.

Neutral trading partners
A connection to people who would otherwise despise you just because you are from a nother place
A manse thats connected to all cities and communes
Safe areas, and political friends who will get your back when your having issues "at home"
Corpse collectors on astral.
Shady business deals and political deals
Anything else that you can think of that would not be possible if everyone had a set loyalty.

Daganev, the differnce between an influential person in a city and an influential rogue, is that the or the other cannot do something that most people could do.

A Magnagoran, Seren, or Celestian can do all the things you mentioned above.

A rogue cannot influence for a village, and the like.

grrr.. whatever, I'll use my knowledge to my own advantage, I don't need to convince anyone of it. I'm talking about the existance of rogues, not an particular rogue here or there. Just as the original post is talking about power and cities and villages, not a specific amount of power or a specific village.

But if you add Rogues, and Experience points to the picture, its not as grind and burnout as you think.

But a rogue can help.

Helping is not doing. A city can provide for its own, it doesn't need a rogue to help.

Note: City also refers to Serenwilde.

But it sure makes certain things more convenient.

Actually i dont agree with the sea battle change...

Considering that the mags were fighting the battles in order to prevent Marilynth from being raised which, if failed, causes several hours of work maybe even days. So it was a matter of getting organized for a couple of hours, around 2-4, where the battle was more balanced or have to face 7 hours at least and maybe even days later on where the odds are stacked against us. If we win we can hit them with the the ship which isnt as hard to counter compared to Marilynth and in the end its just a trade off where Mag does so much work then Celest does an equal amount of work. Anyway the point is the battle for the mags, is actually a defensive move in a more offensive manner. We're not doing any real damage but we do it to prevent them from hurting us significantly. The randomization makes it harder for us in the sense that the tide of the battle cant be controlled as much by organization, unless mag works hard at it for 3 days as opposed to the 2-4 hours. In the end, well win some and lose some, but because we have more to lose, it doesnt sound very appealing.

Of course this is considering i understand the change. So we'll all have to see still how it goes.

Guido was an important rogue.

Now he is an important Magnagoran, although he actually holds no value at all to the city or his guild. The terms 'important' and 'Magnagoran' are, thus, independant of each other. If you can dig it.

I'm sorry man, but I could not read all of that.

EDIT: Ok, I've managed to read most of it by now. I think you left out that some of us actually like village influencing. I wish there was more village turnover or that my clan could work with a minor village as I'd like to actually have a use for my influence skillset.

I think some of us have missed the point of the original post...

Quite. The rogue issue has really nothing to do with what I was discussing. The fact that rogues can exist and impact the economy doesn't really matter on the large scale. They might make getting certain products easier, but they are as much a part of the larger infrastructure as anyone. They just happen to act as conduits between organizations, rather than the organizations dealing directly with one another. It's not particularly relevant to a discuss of the cyclic nature of the economy, as they're only one link in the chain, no matter how influential a rogue they might be.

Resurrection of a legendary thread.

New rule:

No more playing Goryo's Vengeance on old threads.