Yes, I can RP without killing people, but if I wanted to do this why would I have spent money on credits?

If you want to play a game where no one kills anyone, go play a MUSH, having played them, I can assure you that there are plenty out there. This is a MUD where most of our skills are devoted to PK, most of the history is devoted to encouraging conflict to the point of war, and most of the game mechanics revolve around PK. It should not be the case that you need to say "Don't kill anyone you have to declare."

EDIT: I should also point out that most of the game's income (you know, the money that lets us all play the game, even if we don't pay) comes from people buying credits to use in pk.

Many have tried and failed. Brylle had more patience with the attempt than most. Munsia has a knack for looking "shaped up" long enough to make people leave her alone, or let her back in, and then going right back to what she was doing all along. You wouldn't think this would fool people, but only if you don't believe in the Holy Doctrine of Barnum.

*dry laugh* Yes, Erion, that's exactly what I was saying. I've not ever presented my personal reasons for liking karma curses that have nothing to do with what the rest of you think. I've just mindlessly said "if they hate it, it must be good."

Why do you bother to talk to people if you can't be arsed to even read what they're saying?

Yeah.. I'm such a griefer.

I have spent days, RL Days, of time, trying to help Munsia be a truly vested member of Lusternia. I know others have, as well. The question becomes, how much time is *one person* worth?

I've been trying to get Munsia controlled or out of the Serenwilde completely for ages. She's a prime example of the sort of person we can't seem to control ourselves because there's always someone in a position of authority who thinks "she's not that bad". She's exactly the sort of person Karma curses should be used on.

If spending money ment you got special privleges in game or from the administration this game would have a lot more problems than what people rant about.

I'll agree with you that someone like Munsia causes enough problems to deserve a curse, but what about everyone else?

Munsia isn't the only person who attacks people randomly, for no IC reason, and kills them while they're walking about in neutral territory in Prime. I think that the people who do this are pretty rare, actually, and I don't think that everyone else who ever fights or kills should suffer curses because of it. But the point of this is that every fight isn't going to result in a curse.

If you people are so keen on slaughtering each other without repercussions, go to the other planes. Take your fighting up there. You have a million places you can take your battles and not have them "count". There are many different ways of getting around having these things "count".

Someone else brought up Avenger as how I get justice... Avenger isn't, IMO, good enough. Because it gives you all one free kill on me with no repercussions on you at all. When there's just Avenger, you are free to kill me any neutral place while I"m out doing my own business and not bothering anyone, and there's not one thing I could do about it. You all get your little pk careful on, and then you just have to not touch me for 30 days.

I'm getting a little sick of the contempt I keep getting because I don't want to spend my life being the best fighter. It's because of people like me, who put in the effort to do the work you fighters don't have time to do, that you are able to focus on your fighting in the first place. You can't do it all, and no one should have to. Sure, you RP through your fighting. I RP through other things, but not EVERYONE is RPing through their fighting, and the ones who aren't cause a whole lot of serious upset to the people who don't fight. They're nothing to you fighters, but to us non-fighters... they are what make us leave.

I have never said that people shouldn't die, or that there shouldn't be conflict or that even innocents should never die. If I wanted that, I'd go somewhere that had no PVP. I just like having a chance at some justice for myself.

I ignored everything after this post, but I need to answer.

I bought credits for two reasons.

Firstly, I wanted skills so that, if the need arose, I could defend myself and Magnagora. I can't walk around for 12 hours a day and randomly (or "randomly") kill people. I get bored of PK after half an hour, at most. My skills let me do things that I otherwise couldn't do.

Teleport for a useful way to get unlost.
Catacombs for quick travel to villages for quests.
Lust/Empress to save people that need help.
Nihilism because, well, I'm a Nihilist. I couldn't do what I do if I didn't have the skills to back up my roleplay.
Cooking and Arts because that's more of my roleplay, same with influence.

Second reason? I wanted a Manse. In fact, other then arts, cooking and influence, all the rest of any credits I get will be going towards my manse.

Just as you have no reason to buy credits other then pk, some people -have- other reasons.

sorry but...

I don't know whether to laugh or grin sheepishly.

On that note, a sheepish emoticon, if you will :sheepish:

I'll just digress a little here, and, since I cant find the post of someone saying "You have Munsia in your commune, and, as such, cant bitch about roleplay", those in Serenwilde (Sans Erion, Guido, Rhysus, Richter) are some of the best ones about when it comes down to it. Skyla's attitude towards Yrael (Cold, snotty, high handed, as if he's a child), Ialie's ways of attempting to resolve conflict (And then handing me a flower right after brutally slaughtering me with someone else), Gregori's attitude towards Yrael (Generally ignores, before getting miffed enough to beat me to death) and Merloch's general hatred and worship of the moon. Munsia's just a bad egg. I hate her to the degree I almost foam at the mouth each time I hear the word, but thats beside the point. Dont group the rest of Serenwilde in with her.

Rhysus is a terrible fighter. Brylle could likely decimate him. I die all the time, heck I was level 39 the other day. Yet I have never felt the need to exact Vengeance on another person, nevermind a Karmic Curse. I'm interested in hearing why you feel you need to have such retribution?

Because they're sore losers.

My two cents:
The avenger and declare are all we need. I see no need for curses at this time. *shrug*

You are careful to not attack people you have recently bullied.
You have not been bullied recently.
You have not bullied anyone recently.

Yep, fighters like me, killing everyone all the time. Thanks for doing all that work for me so that I can spend all my time pking.

It's not only the pkers who don't like Karma, its those of us who realise that this system also prevents valid RP kills. I'm not going to ask someone to, in the middle of an event, say "Let's take this fight off prime so that we don't get suspect." That's total bull. People who are getting killed randomly do need protection, but this system goes beyond that and creates more problems then it solves. I'm not complaining at all about the fact that you get a way to protect yourself, that's great. I'm complaining about the other scenarios that are perfectly valid RP and are ruined by the Karma system, which I provided many examples of in my earlier post.

I actually think they have a right to get vengeance on people who kill them randomly. Good pkers who demense the highway don't need a free pk on us all. Karmic curses just aren't an appropriate way to provide that.

Just out of curiosity, what are you considering a valid PK kill?

If someone insults you, is that valid?
If someone insults your significant other, is that valid?
If someone looks at you funny, is that valid?
If someone is in a city or guild or commune that you despise, is that valid?
If someone killed a cow that you wanted to kill, is that valid?
If someone harvested herbs down to 0, is that valid?

Before we start making judgments on valid PK, ask yourself who is going to make these adjudications? Do you want me to? Then I'd say all of the above are invalid. Would you like a council of your peers to decide? Then be prepared for some serious prejudice. Or do you just want all of the above to be valid in an anything goes environment? Well, we tried that and it didn't work.

Believe it or not, I'm on the side of those who like to PK. (Contrary to a myth that I've never been involved in PK, as a player in another realm--and no it's not who you think--I was considered one of the top PKers and enjoyed it quite a bit.) But I also want an environment that everyone can enjoy. What I'm hoping karma and the Avenger system will do is to allow us to give the benefit of the doubt to those who do PK and say well, whatever the reason, we'll take it on faith that you had a valid reason.

Now, though, you'll need to consider the consequences if someone chooses to karmic curse you. They probably won't but maybe they will. Maybe you'll want to make sure you have enough karma before you strike. But of course there are many other opportunities for you to PK without consequence: (1) you can kill on other planes, (2) you can kill enemies that enter territories they are enemies of, including villages and denizen controlled areas like Tosha or Glomdoring or the Inner Sea or Sea of Despair, and (3) you can also come to the defense of those who are under attack. And it is not like karma is difficult to come by. You gain karma from quests, from offerings, from killing enemies in enemy territory.

So, again, I wonder what 'valid PK' are we hindering.

Why don't curses require upkeep to sustain?

Edit: As in, the same as the upkeep for blessings, but paid by the curser. If they have enough spare karma to keep a curse going, then do it. You probably won't be able to afford to sustain a curse and sustain a blessing, so its your choice as to which you do. It will also mean that multiple curses would be -very- rare.

I don't mind Karma (having not used it yet), but I agree with those who say the curses and particularly blessings are too strong.

Edit edit: Now that I think about it... this would be an awful idea. It punishes the 'victim' in some ways. Slight, but still a problem.

There have been some good points. I think the main problem which needs addressing isn't that karmic curses exist for the non-PKers to get at the PK-ers, which I myself don't approve of, but a lot of people will, but the fact that to GET karma and revoke these curses takes time a lot of people don't have. Time, a precious commodity, which is extremely limited. People come on Lusternia to have fun, not to mindlessly tap keys (unless they're bashers, who don't get any sympathy anyway). The people this applies to most are the PKer/customer category, who IRL have better things to do all week than sit around questing, but want some action when they do have time.