See, I always though the one "free" kill was there in case you actually had a valid RP reason. If you didn't, oh well, they're safe for another 30 days from you hurting them. If you got all your friends together and killed that person 10 times, that's abusing a loophole and should be punished and fixed.

And it's not completely free, either. If you get killed, solve it in an IC manner. Chances are, people will also have one "free" kill on whoever hurt you, and can hunt the sucker down.

If you take that away (Karma curses), it limits RPd PK, and doesn't seem to help random PK at all. From all accounts, there aren't more than 3-5 people who actually randomly PK without any real reason. 3-5 deaths per RL MONTH, assuming they all get you, is nothing.

Curses just seem to fix a problem that wasn't there, and in the process cover up a problem that was there (calling in friends for another "free" kill).

If I'm killed by this same person once every 30 days for absolutely _nothing_ except walking into the demesne / same room, you can bet I'm not going to be happy.

One free kill every 30 days sounds very little, but it's the general sense of helplessness that gets me. How would you feel if say your boss / teacher had the right to slap you once every month for no reason other than they just felt like doing it, and you can't do anything about it unless they slap you again in that particular month?

I wouldn't curse someone who actually had valid cause (and I don't believe I've ever given anyone cause), or even killed me accidentally (assuming I believed them, but multiple 'accidental' killings is a bit of a stretch on the belief).

And why should I ask my friends to risk their lives and relationships, and waste their gold when I can curse them instead? Revenge somehow seems better when accomplished on my own anyway. And yes, I do like the taste of revenge very much.

Love and kisses
Summer

Welcome to the Age of non-fighting quest whores! They will still die as often as before, but with Karma, they will be looking forward to the praying.

While I don't really care about losing exp, I can't say I look forward to dying.

Now see, if karmic curses were toned down to the point where they were reasonable punishment for killing someone (and from the testimonies I have heard, they are not, don't know about the adjustments though) and took a reasonable amount of work to lift (sending a prominent player out to collect pilgrims for several hours, or do any other quests that won't get them anything other than karma, while hindering them with what appear to be overpowered curses is -not- reasonable), then I'd be fine with them. I think it should take 75 to curse, and 5 * the number of suspects you have up to a maximum of 100 to remove a curse. That way, someone who is not involved in excessive pk (only has one or two suspects) will not be a good target for a curse, as they will be able to easily remove it, and someone who is a problem pker (has 15-20 suspects) will be an excellent target for a curse, as they will have a hard time removing it, and probably deserve it.

EDIT: When you go to a seal, you should be able to check how much it would cost for someone who you have suspect on to remove a curse.

Interesting idea, Faethan!

I don't mind having cost dependent on suspect list. But 50 karma to curse is bad enough. No need to raise it to 75

What if you lowered the price for blessings, and increased the prices for curses to keep people doing blessings more than curses.. *inno*

Can anyone explain to me why curses that seem so severe can be done with suspect and not venegeance?

Anyone can use curse. If Amaru came and killed me, I can curse him assuming I get enough karma to do so.

Does Amaru have a valid reason? Hell yes he does.

Thats the problem with Karma curses. Anyone can use them.

I'm curious what people's thoughts are on if curses are only applicable to those who are listed X number of times on all the player's suspect/vengeance lists. The theory on this is that the chronic griefers would accumulate many entries while the casual PKer who primarily kills for IC reasons will not accumulate many entries. (If I limit my killing others to being on my guild's plane, bashing things I want to protect like loyal villagers, or because you declared aggressions against me then I should be on relatively few lists.)

I have a lot of suspects. All of them are attackers, aside from maybe a few, like Akraasiel, who betrayed Magnagora.

Yet Quentin, who was defending the Inner Sea when we were in there, so I had to declare on him because I was in Kelpies territory, karma cursed me. Even though he had attacked me before.

But if you look at Tuek and Narsrim's victims list, they are a lot smaller, even though they kill a lot more, faster, and better. Why? Because it requires 10 people to hit them, and only 2 to hit me.

What if karma curses were instead used for a choice? So instead of cursing someone who is on your suspect list, you'd actually have to get vengeance on the person and then the curser can choose to curse or get vengeance. Of course, the curse could last for about an hour in real life time to make it equal out so that the curser feels they're getting something out of it instead of just like a few % in experience.

Or, the entire vengeance system could be wiped out as far as how it works for getting experience and just move it to curses. Maybe make the downside to cursing someone is that there's a slight percentage of receiving the same curse you placed on someone during the entire time they have the curse, even if they did kill you twice. It's likely, that if a person killed you twice, you're doing something against them to deserve being killed, so technically, it's not like you'd be cursing them for free.

You are correct--that was how it was designed. However, what ended up happening is that certain people would just hunt for anyone not listed as a suspect. The result was that Lusternia turned into a bloodbath where even several veteran PK got sick of all the constant conflict. Not to mention those not into PK ended up leaving in disgust.

So, yes, that's how the the Avenger was designed and what it did. However, I'm big enough to admit that it didn't work as hoped for. This is what karma is intended to address. Replacing vengeance with karma is not a solution as it doesn't address this root issue of the failure of the one "free" kill.

Avenger/karma is not expected to make the determination on what is a 'valid RP' kill or not. No system will be able to do that. It is meant to give those who PK in neutral areas on the prime some ramifications to consider. It is also meant to give voice to those who are killed in neutral areas on the prime, whatever the reason.

Which is exactly the problem. I get suspect if I kill someone in enemy territory or neutral area. It just means staying on prime or even fighting at all will be pointless. And if I choose not to fight on Prime, the options I have to foight is Ethereal, where I get will-o-wisped into totems/guards, or go to Celestia and die to guards.

Karma was designed to stop needless PK. But it stops PK all together. Those who die and die for a damned good reason, can still curse someone.

It just can't be measured numerically. Silvanus also has a valid point.

I think curses would be less of a problem if they wore off after a while (like an Admin's DF or peace in another IRE game), which would make them player/roleplay initiated PK restrictions. But why oh why force burnout upon us?

It wears off after 25 hours of online gaming experience.

Meaning I'm going to sit there for 25 hours doing absolutely nothing until it wears off.

Assuming curse costs remain unchanged, and I get killed twice for no reason, in addition to double death exp losses, I lose 50% karma to curse that guy, and have the possibility of losing another 75% on top of the 50%? How is that reasonable?

Attacker:
75% karma

Victim:
50% or 125% karma
+ exp loss from 2 deaths
+ loss of whatever items that drop at death
+ loss of whatever items used in defending themselves

Or make it so that only those who have 0 suspects (ie. non-combatants and non-thieves) can curse? Or if they participate in defense and hit someone who ran out a few rooms, maybe 0 to 5?

Would cut down on the worries that people will curse even when they get suspect when they shouldn't.

What you may think is a 'damned good reason' may be considered a frivolous reason by someone else. In any event, think of the possibility of getting cursed as a part of the repercussion of killing another in neutral territory on the prime (irregardless of the reason why you killed them). Such is karma! Killing another is a drastic step to do, especially if its not in defense of another or defense of your territory. It seems to me people are thinking curses are an OOC/administrative punishment rather than an RP repercussion that makes murder more significant.

That said, I've heard a few pretty good ideas. As you know, when karma was first introduced, we made some significant adjustments based on constructive feedback. As curses have gone into effect, so too will we be open to more such constructive feedback. Right now, we are looking for feedback to make the system work.