Torak, the kill that got you that curse was not a raid. You killed someone on the highway while she was bringing in pilgrims. Your pretext was that she defended a communemate while you were raiding within Serenwilde, in the forest itself, though she barely even hit you.

Since you do that kind of thing all the time I doubt anyone is really buying into your pity ploy here. But just in case, people should know that you either have the memory of a diseased goldfish, or you're lying through your teeth. Possibly both. You are why there is karma. Straighten up and you won't have to whine so much for getting back a tenth of the crap you dish out.

Arix (or Alef, I forget which) were outside of Acknor while the big group of Serens/Celestians were there attacking Magnagora citizens, and I killed one of them, and they karma cursed me.

Arix (or Alef) deserved to be killed if he was loitering outside Acknor when there was a raid going on. The fact that he cursed you because of it is a clear abuse and complete crap, and it shows how some people would be driven from the game.

Presumably the Suspect/Avenger/Karma system is intended to act (in some sense) as the "trump card" to Achaea's incredibly complex HELP PKCAUSE system of dealing with grief-type PK.

But, at what point does the complexity of Lusternia's coded systems begin to rival that of Achaea's solution?

There are the myriad nuances governing when you can and cannot attack, when you can and cannot curse or be cursed, when you will and will not gain suspect status.

These are all affected by the PK careful flag, what room you're in when you attack, if you're declaring your target or defending someone else, and numerous other factors.

Is it all worth it?

Is the time spent by the development team on the creation, maintenance (apparently there are many bugs associated with it), and public education worth it, as compared to the time spent by a dedicated Administration handling the issues associated with the pkcause system?

Let's say a potential customer enters the game as a newbie and is intrigued by the interesting skills, deep history, and engaging combat system. She wisely spends some time investigating the game, learning about how she would be able to use the fruits of her monetary investment. Is it made clear to this newbie, by the various help files in game, under which circumstances she will be able to engage in active combat with an enemy? In addition to this, is it made clear under which circumstances she will be punished (via curses or the Avenger) for using the skills that she paid dearly for?

From my perspective, I would think not.

Which is worse? A confusing, bugged, coded system that attempts to regulate the circumstances in which you can and cannot attack, or a lengthy, detailed helpfile which explains a very large majority of the circumstances in which you may be punished for attacking?

considering how many issues staff would have to deal with if it was a helpfile. If i were an admin i would go for hardcode as the better option. Seriously all our whinning is such a waste of time sometimes.

Administrative controlled punishments, and administrative decisions are much more subjective. A hard-coded system is completely objective.

While I would prefer to go the route of Imperian, with a complete absense of PK rules and restrictions altogether (Other then all PK must have a roleplay reason, and excessive PK is a no-no), the Karma/Avenger system is leagues above the Achaean issue system.

I like Karma and the Avenger. They are fine.

Yeah. If it was issues, it'd just be a horrible waste of time for everyone involved. With this? It's great, if someone kills you "illegally", nail them and get them avenger'd, or cursed.

Victim Status
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marina Suspect ---> Used a coven to kill me while I was killing Munsia on Ackleberry -- I hadn't intended to so anything till her almost but not quite husband started sending tells telling me to just try and get revenge.
Klia Suspect -->More of a duel then killing
Guido Suspect --> Need to take a guess?
Elryn Suspect ---> This was during a bunch of raids
Mitch Suspect ---> Attacked and killed me with triden in Glomdoring
Bosh Suspect --> No clue
Sekreh Suspect ---> Duel
Bauto Suspect --> Attacked me with Munsia, Triden, and Sekreh then mocked me in tells
Shinza Suspect ---> Raids
Tefri Suspect ----> During squid fishing she/he was attacking Mags, I was sent in to kill it
Vix Suspect ---> Wouldn't shut up in tells after a raid laughing at me.
Jiriki Suspect --> I showed the tells to people from him laughing after a group he was with sent me running and saying I was "Imcompitant(no word of a lie)"
Dele Suspect -----> No clue
Tarielenwe Suspect ---> Raiding
*******************************************************************************
All of the ones labled raiding were defenders from a raid whom were killed during that raid. 3/4th of these kills were before Karma was even invented. I fail to see how any of these are excessive. If someone attacks you in a group damn straight you should kill them when they are alone.

Sure, just do it while they're in enemy territory. You seem to be the only one complaining that you can't take revenge in neutral territory against every person to so much as lay a finger on you. If'd we just wipe the damn suspect lists once, fix the village defense bug, there would be no real reason to whine.

And whoever thinks this is complicated has never seen Achaea pk rules. If you have to declare, they get suspect. You have to declare unless you're defending your own territory against an enemy. Why is that complicated?

I come from achaea. You need to re-read what I have said, enemy territory is covered with statues, guards, and demesned. You enter and get 50 summon attempts as well as about 10 people coming after you. Its very hard to get a kill off against a competent oppenent in these conditions. Right now I wouldn't care if this system stays, but atleast wipe the curse and suspect lists.

Don't impugn my name on these boards (you mention me by name later in this thread). If I died during a legitimate raid I would not curse you, period.

Since you obviously kill so many people so much of the time for so spurious reasons that you can't be bothered to remember killing me, then I'll refresh your memory.

You raided Serenwilde. You attacked one of my commune mates inside the forest. She cried out for help and I was near enough to respond to the call. I wasn't prepared for fighting, I wasn't wearing armour, I didn't have any of the Fae with me. I was basically a sitting duck, but I went anyway. I got there, you were in the trees killing my communemate. I hit you three times with my athame. You killed her, then you fell out of the tree.

Then I assume you ran like a little girl, but since I didn't see you screaming and flapping your arms, I can only conjucture. Because you didn't return and you didn't kill me at that time.

If you had killed me at that time, I would have considered it a completely fair death, and one that I deserved because of being so ill-prepared.

After you ran, you started sending me nasty, idiotic tells about how you were so going to kill me because I attacked you. I informed you I was defending a guildmate from your raid, and was well within my rights to do so. You weren't forced into the forest, you came there to raid. That made you open to attack at that time. I didn't hunt you down, I didn't trick you anywhere, I didn't attack you on the road. I came to the defense of a communemate. Eventually I was forced to snub you because of your vile words.

Five real life days later I was showing a new guildmember around and teaching him about hunting in Balach swamp. We paused on the road outside Acknor after taking some corpses to be offered to discuss some point of procedure or other. You showed up out of the blue and killed me.

That is why you were cursed. I should be able to walk on the roads in the Basin without having to worry that you're going to attack me like that. I didn't do a thing to you that warranted such an cowardly action on your part, and because of your action, you paid the Karmic price for it.

If I were in territory to which I am enemied, then I would be taking my life into my hands, and I know that. I wasn't. I am not enemied to anywhere except Nil. I have done nothing to you to earn such an action, and clearly you've done enough that your karmic debt is so high that it only cost me five karma to curse you.

If you hate this so much then you really need to think long and hard about where and when you are attacking people, because you are clearly doing it in places you're not supposed to. That is part of the lesson of Karma.

If you keep attacking me inappropriately, I will continue to see that you pay the karmic price for your foul deeds. If someone kills me appropriately, even if I were able to curse them, I would not.

Now take your medicine and stop whinging.

So basically you're saying that it is unreasonable for the city to team up against you when you're actually hurting all of them by raiding. Get real.

- First you raid and do damage.
- Group of 10 comes and kill you once (or up to 3 times depending on your defs and whether or not you run after the first).
- You kill whichever person who can't fight well (? deaths).
- And then you want to kill all 10 of them (that's 10 deaths) for responding to _your_ raid after.

Speaking of medicine, your electro-shock therapy is ready.

It was a suggestion, not a statement of what actually exists.

Yeah, no picking on the Faethan, he's often got good ideas!

I did not force you to defend, I did not come near you. Yes I killed someone in the commune, it was your choice to go and try and save them. I find it funny you have the image of me running like a little girl, I left because of guards, if you hadn't talked inside of tells I wouldn't of bothered with you seeing as how you couldn't fight off a baby rat.
For those who still do not get what I am complaining about I am saying it is virtually impossible to kill anyone but on prime, assuming they do not come to a plane that belongs to your city. If this is what was intended I do not see why they bothered making such a great pvp system as far as skillwise goes.

Precious boy, you are the one who started talking to me in tells. When you left Commune territory, I was no longer concerned with you. You sent me a tell that you were going to kill me. I responded simply that I'd been defending a commune mate.

That you aren't able to see the obligations of duty when an enemy invades one's territory and attacks one's comrades is only another symptom of the obvious problem you have.

You clearly have no grasp of what the world, as represented by Estarra et. al. are trying to tell you when you get PK STATUS on someone you kill out of the blue on the highway in neutral territory on prime.

Torak, the only people who fall for this line are the people who fall for everything. You attack people so that they can get people to defend them so you can have an "excuse" to attack those other people, so you can have an endless supply of people you can attack any time you wish, bringing friends if you don't feel you're up to it yourself, or attacking them while they're hunting, or both. And then you give them this line that they "deserve" to be killed for defending against you, all in hopes of... what? Convincing people not to curse you for doing exactly what curses are for? Hoping they won't realize that you created the situation that gives you this excuse in the first place, on purpose, and that you've done it a hundred other times this year? The worst part is there are people stupid enough to fall for this. But don't pat yourself on the back too hard for being the only person brilliant enough to think of poking at people to get them to attack you so you can attack back. There were paleolithic cavemen who did it with more finesse and subtlety.

I attack people who attack me, this is not a hard concept. Now, I will start by saying if you do not think people kill people who defend people (IE I attack bob, fred helps bob, so I kill fred) is reason to kill them you really need to look around. If you think this deserves curses just stop talking, if you involve yourself in a situation that may or may not end in your death you have no right to curse someone. Infact, its amusing that the karma completely overlooks the concept of teaming, as well as the avenger. Its even more amusing that someone can stand there and taunt you, if you kill, they curse. This system has multiple problems, I have listed a few yet instead of trying to say whats wrong you go into a a little piss fit. Why? Because you are obviously still pissed I killed you for this very same reason(Defending someone). If you want to play a game without pk go play a mush. My suggestion? Make 6 tomes of rules, atleast then there are less if any loopholes.

EDIT: Watch the personal attacks. ~Shiri~
EDIT: If you are going to edit people for personal attacks read better and edit thiers too Shiri.

Let's try this:

If I were to get into a bar fight, I'd sure as hell attack anyone who was helping to beat on me. However, I wouldn't take their names and later track them down at work and shoot them. Granted, this is a game, but it's still not cool, unless you have a damn good reason to hate the person. "He razed my shield while I raided" is NOT a good enough reason.