Only 2 out of the 15 on my suspects list are as you describe Roark. All the others were put on my list through raids and 90% of the time, killing them one room outside of enemy territory. This is the worst change to PK in the realms yet, if it wasn't for the amount of money and time I put into here I would leave...but Aetolia sucks just as much.

I noticed you have PK CAREFUL turned off. That is most certainly the source of your problem. I strongly recommend for all players that it be turned on since having it off means you don't care about the consequences of your PK. Since you do seem to care, my advice should help you out greatly. Having it off 100% of the time is an indication of a player that does not want to PK only people who will PK back for revenge or who are in unrestricted PK situations, which would lead me to believe all the people who have you suspected are as I had described if you always have it off like right now.

Or, God forbid, it means that the Magnagorans are right and you need to lay off the summoning a tad.

Indeed, I think I should elaborate on the usefulness of PK CAREFUL. Of those on someone's suspect list:
* PK CAREFUL OFF users get on 2.3 times as many suspect lists as those with it set to ON.
* The variation is much higher for PK CAREFUL OFF: suspected up to 24 times vs. up to 6 times for those with PK CAREFUL ON (quadruple!).
* Of those with PK CAREFUL OFF, about 40% are on only 1 suspect list, but of those with PK CAREFUL ON, 75% are on only 1 suspect list. (The other 25% I presume turn it off only occassionally.)

As much as these stats show the usefulness of PK CAREFUL ON, the stats are actually biased against it since there are probably many more people with it set ON than OFF who are no no suspect lists and thus cannot be calculated. If they were factored in then the numbers would skew even more in favour of PK CAREFUL ON.

I think, Ethelon, your math is skewed - how many of those "90%" having been only "one room outside enemy territory" were there because you SUMMONED them there? Or because you beckoned them out.

I digress. PK CAREFUL OFF is stupid.

Actually Roark, I've NEVER turned PK CAREFUL off, it's been on since it's been implimented. You may have looked at the wrong person.

I just thought of another repercussion to raiding and defending against raiders. If you defend your territory and kill a raider you GAIN karma. If the raider kills you he or she loses karma (if he has any suspects).

I don't mind the gaining karma, but the losing karma's stupid, IMO. We already lose karma for killing, you mean increased karma loss? If so, I'm going to go open a vein now.

Mm, just as an add on to that. I'm glad, obviously, you're trying. Karma gain for killing enemies in enemy territory, fine. Good. Give a reason to defend. But, losing MORE karma? Karma loss for killing sarks as is. Increased would be horrid. We'd be questing just to raid. And the arguement that we're raiding for angels/demons or dwarves, and thus get karma for turning them in, doesn't work that well. Unless the karma gains for them are upped, the karma gain for the entire raid's work for a single person might come out flat, if no one else turned in corpses. And sometimes, that's just not feasible anyway.

Karma gain for defending, good. Increased loss for raiding, bad.

I'm really sorry you feel this is the worst change to PK. Like I said, I'm trying to reach for a compromise and unfortunately you are part of the very, very small minority of those who are impacted the most by the change.

If it is true that you got 13 suspects for killing from one room outside of enemy territory, the first thought that crosses my mind is if this is a hugely prevalent problem with the system why more people likewise don't have suspects in such large numbers. If it is a problem that just seems to affect you, I wonder what your fighting strategies have been where you kill such a huge number of people one room outside of enemy territory. It just strikes me as a rather striking coincidence that it happens with such frequency that the moment you kill someone they happen to be one room outside of enemy territory unless your strategy somehow encourages this setup.

Anyway, to make a tangential comment, I am not fond of maneuvers where someone summons you one room outside of enemy territory and uses fear to force someone into enemy territory (or any variation that does the same). It does rather circumvent everything we've set up. We are working on making it impossible to force someone into enemy territory from adjacent rooms, but until we can close all the holes, you may want to be aware that the admin frown upon such maneuvers.

I've never heard of Ethelon fearing. He normally just does it into statues and kills.

But, if you do fear, bad, bad.

But you should make it, at least right now, legal for us to beckon people into guards, if they're beckoning us out into a large group.

In my opinion, anyway!

Right, it should probably be a two way street if adjacent to enemy territory--unless of course you are in enemy territory and are beckoned into guards in that territory (that's just a risk you take for entering enemy territory).

Well, to set something straight, as I have in other threads. I do not summon a great deal into statues, infact, very few people have died to me from such attacks. I'm usually standing there and throwing out summons just to bother people enough to get into a position I like, then I usually try to teleport of chase them down.

Now, the PK status....most of the people I've killed in the past few weeks have been right outside areas like Southgard and Angkrag, and yes it's usually through Beckon and is the exact same tactic Magnagora uses when they raid Southgard, so there should be no whining there.

PK was fine before any of the changes went in and I've already dealth with the most Curses so far. I didn't whine much before, was just annoyed, but this is just plain stupid. You have now forced me to stay my hand in defending against raids, killing of my guildmembers, or anything in neutral territory because if I do kill someone...the victim spends 5 karma to waste 100 of mine...if I have that much at the time. People are right, the rules here have become absurd in PK and it's going to become worse than Achaea.

If you want us to fight in the enemy territories and not chase the runners outside into neutral territory it would help if you fixed Eye sigils. Half the time a raid happens now the raider just ghosts and walks out and we can't do anything except try to catch him/her where ever they pop back up in neutral territory. Not saying Eye sigil is the only problem, but it would help.

If anyone else may have noticed through my posts in the past, I am HORRID at explaining things, sorry

Just to clarify...someone is going to interpret this as 'summoning into guards is OK until the coded fix is made and announced.' Was this the intent of your statement answering Erion with 'right, it shold probably be a two way street"?

Raiders are, de facto, no longer in neutral territory, and you cannot be cursed.

Rescue does not entail death of either party.

If "anything in neutral territory" means PK for the next 30 days, possibly.

Really, I do a fair share of PK, and I haven't had a victim in something like two and a half RL months. Now, compare to Achaean PK rules that state that kicks and fear attacks are grounds for issues. It's a rather underhanded stab at our generous, talented, and genuinely interested admins, don't you think? I think we can excuse them the brain fart in their ruling on scrying and give them the input they ask for and the patience they deserve while working out a PK system.

OMG Ethelon! Those summonings are lyke harrasment and stuff! they should issue you for that!

Personally, I see the curses affecting me very little in the future, but thats just because I make sure I am overly careful about choosing when and where to fight to avoid getting in a situation where I can get cursed, and the chances that I will curse anyone is pretty slim unless its to render an advantage to Magnagora then I will happily drop a curse on everyone in my list.

Looking at that, it could be part of the problem I see with curses - that they are going to be used more as a strategic offense tool than a way to punish the very few true "griefers" in the game, and the way they are set up and their effects - its pretty much inevitable.

But these changes seem to address that very thing. If you ignore the PK guidelines consistently, you're going to get nerfed into oblivion. This might be really ugly for the next 30 days while everyone's victim list slowly dwindles downwards. I trust it'll be better later.

There is always Kether/Violet. It does 1k odd damage to me, and not being able to heal that is nothing to be sniffed at. You can get 2 off in the EQUI time it takes after ghosting. And if you get eye sigil to tug us out of ghost, shorten the EQ time on ghost a chunk so people have a chance to leave. Ahem.

/hijack

Ack, I was looking at the wrong flag. And ignore all those stats I gave. They were calculated using an arbitrary flag unrelated to PK.

Yrael, only a Mugwump can get two Kethers off, I am damn fast at using kether as soon as anyone goes ghost and I 've only got two off on murphy one time when he had alot of afflictions and I guess coulnd't move as easily. Otherwise it's always been I kether once and they are gone.