Any divine want to comment on why secretaries, at least high ranked ones, can't outguild? Or give me the chances of it changing if I beg enough?

Gr 15 should be enough for outguild, in my opinion.....

Granted, I don't need to worry about it, and the Leadership of the Nihilists are often around, but still.

The leadership of the Aquamancers are around alot, as well, but we can't be there all the time. I agree with Acrune that either Secs or GR15 and up should be able to outguild. You can argue all day that the power can be corrupted, but allowing them to outguild won't really affect that. If they're in the position, that means the leadership trusts them. If they abuse it, they are removed from that position. Simple.

As Acrune asked, could a Divine please tell us why Secs or GR15 can't outguild?

Well, probably if a secretary is such a problem that he abuses outguilding, the guild leadership can outguild him as well.
So... They at least should be able to outguild novices (and even people under gr2, wich are almost novices).

Why would you need to kick someone out of the guild in an emergency? They don't lose skills.

To avoid him being annoying to the rest of the guild?

Having an aquamancer bashing dragon turtles counts as an emergency to me. Or one that's so immature that he changes his name to Suckmyb***s and is what one might call a fool.

Well, quite a few times in another IRE I had novices spamming GNT with 20-line bursts of garbage at remarkable speeds so fast that they caused half the guild to go link-dead before they could get a GNTOFF to go through, causing more than a few deaths; and no admins around to stop them. Outguilding at least got them off my channel.

Secs shouldnt be allowed to outguild....ever. The ability to outguild is held over other players as a bitchslap stick. Shut up and agree with what I say or want to do in the guild or Ill make up a lame excuse and get you outguilded.

I like seeing secretaries in this game have very little influence over peoples chars. Let the secretaries write to the GM their reasons why somebody should be outguilded. The GM is elected by the majority of the guild and as such has the final say on who stays and who goes, I like that.

As soon as secs are allowed to outguild what follows will be the creation of rule upon rule upon rule of things that players do that will result in outguilding. These rules are made by individual secs and are usually nothing more than pet peeves or ideas they want to see enforced upon guild members but know that most members would just laugh at the idea or the individual who came up with said lame idea in the first place if there wasnt a "do this like I say or get outguilded" clause attached.

Id rather trust one GM with power to outguild a person than have to worry about the kindness of 6-9 secretaries who from what I see in the main are so detached from their playerbase they rarely even say hi to new members in the street.

You're paranoid. Unless I'm missing the vast majority of guilds that suck like that, I've never had a reason to be worried about being outguilded. And since you don't lose your skills here, it's not much of a threat anyway.

Secretaries SHOULD have an influence on your character. Would you just blow off the Secretary of State if he showed up at your house, because you didn't get to vote for him?

I think you've had a bad guild or two, and are generalizing way too much.

He is. It's not the first time he's come out with stuff like that.

Wrongful outguilding is very, very rare, and is easily remidied (reinduct and guildfavor back up to old GR, especially in Lusternia where there is no skill loss). Inability to outguild when needed (as is clearly the case in Acrune's example) is much worse. I personally would like to be able to see the Guild Administrator able to decide what GR and position is required for each power, so that guilds can adjust it to their liking.



I'm guessing by this rediculously paranoid statement that you've had a bad experience in some other IRE game. If your guild leadership is so stupid as to do this, why do you want to be a part of the guild at all? You can keep the skills as a rogue, and can probably retain city membership to have access to power.

If you are willing to trust your GM with outguilding, why are you not willing to trust him/her to deal with secretaries abusing their power?

I remember the time when I was a serpentlord on achaea, and one guy, non-novice, got himself stuck in an endless loop with his automated saying goodbye on gnt, that was a good few minutes of link-death for most of the guild before one of the secs managed to outguild the guy. So yeah, there are emergencies when you need to outguild people.

I remember that time too. I think it sucks that the guild outguilds for such reasons though. So those who were bashing die, but unless they were at insanely high levels, they'd probably get the exp back faster than that novice could have gotten his skills back (without buying creds).

I find those who make a trigger to auto-greet upon entering the realms irritating, but even so, odds are the loop wasn't done on purpose. So basically the guild was causing someone to lose a ton of lessons for a scripting mistake. Just do a script to turn gnt off if it starts spamming. I don't know how to do that, but I'm sure one of you expert coders can manage it easily.

There's a nice little 'x' button thats useful when things like that happen....

And I've only seen one person wrongfully outguilded in any IRE game, and that person was re-inducted within 10 minutes, and promoted back to rank ASAP.

I'd still like to hear thoughts of a divine.

I think what happened is the guy had an alias with a name like quit, that went soemthing along the lines of
gnt farewell, serpentlords!
quit
So he looped himself endlessly, even in the time you'd take to close the client that'd send huge amounts of spam. Especially as the client would probably be lagging as a program due to the amount of ip/op. we couldn't get him off chan any other way, my client locks under that amount of spam so I can't close it, any commands I entered in that time came a few minutes late just because of the amount of input coming in, it's not pleasant. And yeah, it sucks that he had to be outguilded to stop it, but sometimes it is actually neccessary.

Why should a treasurer, for example, be able to kick me out of my guild? Why should the guy that teaches Novies have the ability to let me stay or make me go? It should be left to the Guild Administrator, the Guild Master and perhaps a couple others.

Well, that could be stopped with a ditch or even a momentary stun. (Terenas did that once in Lusternia -- the stun, I mean, not the loop.) But someone who comes in spouting a 20-line block of profanity and punctuation repeatedly is not having a little slip of the macro.

If at least one was constantly around, I'd agree. Unfortunatly, this can't be the case. And, as people have said, sometimes you absolutely need to outguild people. I think if a person is trusted by an elected official, that should be enough. If your guild is so corrupt that you feel you might be outguilded for no good reason, you should seriously consider leaving.

My guild is not corrupt I just don't trust the majority of gamers to be mature about most things.

My point is, how does a treasurer's position even relate to whether or not someone should remain in a guild? There is a need for people who can outguild, that I agree with, but don't just hand it to secs because they are there.