No matter what the admins do, someone is going to whine about it. This sucks, that sucks. This is too weak, that is too overpowered. I don't like this, I want more of that. If only you did it this way. If only you were as smart as me since I know best.

The admins may be playing divine beings, but they're only human, and humans get worn out. It's like we only have, collectively, so much "whine currency" and when it's all spent, it's gone. They built up an immunity to the toxin, to mix a metaphor.

We reached that point in Lusternia maybe a month ago. Can't say I blame any of the admins one bit for it, either. But....

That means even when the concerns are valid, even when the imbalances are real, even when the attached reasoning is sound, even when the complainer's enemies agree with the complaint though they stand to lose and not gain if the complaint is fixed (and therefore the complaint is clearly objective)... even then, the complaints fall on deaf ears far too often, and more often all the time.

It seems like it's no longer possible to make a reasoned argument about a problem, or present a detailed proposal for a solution, anymore. You just get lumped in with everyone else who's making a biased, one-sided argument with an unimplementable, unfair proposal for a solution, and ignored. And if lots of people agree with you, even people from all parts of the game, that doesn't help, like you'd expect it to. It seems to hurt the case because more voices in agreement doesn't sound like consensus or objectivity, just like louder whining.

I hope whoever spent all our "whine currency" enjoys whatever they got for it, and maybe takes pity on those who held off from whining until it was too late, and thus got nothing.

If we can't talk about this problem and fix it, since it's sort of a metaproblem that sits on top of every other problem we might talk about, we can't fix anything.

As long as my demon attacks double time, I don't think I'll mind.

Especially if Roark and Est take as long a Sarapis did to realize it.

This aside, I tend to agree. I enjoy the complaining, but sometimes the stupid threads of just random complaints end up just irritating people. Like all the complaints against Dreamweaving so far. It's new, we don't know how to fight it yet. Think of ways to go against it, and if it's truly a problem, keep trying. See if they don't fix it. If they don't, then make a simple complaint.

And then people turn them into flame-fests (See: Shiro's "Ghost" thread in Ideas). If you don't know how to combat it, or you don't have it, it's not unbalanced. If you want to be even with everyone, become a god. They've got all the skillsets.

All your points are true, Gwylifar, but, sadly, this issue isn't limited to Lusternia. Every MUD has 'whining abuse' from their players. Look at Achaea for example, the players do nothing but whining and ranting, this is why i'm barely active in Achaea these days.

But i agree with you, whining has to be reduced. I might be new here in Lusternia but i know, from Achaea, that whining and crying won't lead anywhere.

The whole world suffers whining abuse. We're not going to stop people from whining. Can't be done.

Maybe I'm just hoping to remind the weary admins of this, so they will (1) go take a nice long refreshing nap, it's well-earned; and (2) come back and start remembering to look at the reasoning behind the whines again and sifting out the worthwhile ones; and then (3) when they get weary and find themselves dismissing whines out of hand again, go back to step (1).

Or, we could make a subforum devoted to the posting and whining about bugged, overpowered and underpowered skills and situations, so the admins don't have to fear whining in every thread they read, and can take a look at the subforums whenever they feel like fixing bugs and skills. Of course we, as players, would have to come to an agreement to try and stay reasonable in that forum, else it's just gonna be a nightmare.

That's kinda what Idiots is for.

Pff, I like subforums, don't pop my bubble.

...'kay.

Read signature, rinse, repeat.

I agree, certain things need to be whined about, but dreamweaving is not one of them. Roark( I hope I spelt that right!) put a hell of alot of work into it and so far the majority of people had this reaction: OMGWTF *Insert :censor:ing here*. Grow the hell up people. Not only do you not know its complete uses, but its BRAND NEW Do not complain about overpoweredness. I can see Ceres whining about that blackout thing, although the log was not complete;I can also hear about how lamers are using safe rooms but comeeee on give it some time! You want them to release new stuff? How about more positive reactions and all the whining(I also hope I am spelling that right) wrote intelligently(Damn I am a hypocrite). Personally my hat is off to the designers for everything but KARMA!

The log looked fairly complete to me. And actually, we've had a fairly positive reaction to dreamweaving. There have been complaints, some necessary, some unnecessary, but on the whole the reaction's been a LOT calmer than with some of the other crud that's happened. I think the departure from the IRE norm has a lot of people excited here, and with good reason. (Gwylifar still has a point, but I don't feel people have been complaining overmuch about dreamweaving. )

I wasn't even thinking about Dreamweaving when I wrote the post above.

My feeling on Dreamweaving is:
(1) it's not anywhere near tested enough for anyone to really know what it'll do to balance: it's perfectly reasonable to have IC reactions to it saying it's a threat or not, but OOC, I think all we know is we don't know yet;
(2) it looks pretty cool, although as I said elsewhere I was a little disappointed at the thematic elements being more astral projection than dreamweaving, which is why I'm calling it "dreamwalking" instead of "dreamweaving" (in hopes something later can come along that is actually about weaving dreams); and
(3) there's a larger trend in the balance between defenses and ways to get around defenses, which has been swinging too far towards the latter in Lusternia for a while, and this has just moved it a bit farther, and it's time for the pendulum to start swinging back.

But if I had to pick one thing that inspired my post (and I'd rather not; I'd rather it stood on its own, instead of being cut down as "oh, he just wrote that so he could get attention to X" and thus turned into yet another whine to be ignored), it'd be how the forums are full of people saying "Blademaster is too weak, Moon is too weak, Stag is too weak, and Serenguard are way too weak". Notable people in both cities have joined with members of other commune guilds in agreeing to this. Almost no one has disagreed with it. Reasons have been listed in detail. Proposals have been written to fix it, ranging from one sentence to twenty paragraphs and every length in between.

But this is all waved away with thin insults and imprecations, or ignored outright. I feel like we missed the chance to complain because we were quietly being polite and not trying to jump in line... and now the line's closed just when we got to the front and there's no amount of shouting we can do that'll get the clerk back.

I keep hearing from friends from the Serenguard who have given in and made alts (or simply left) and keep telling me (OOC), "It's great, you should try it. I'm hardly out of novicehood and I have an attack that does more damage than my old masterwork swords, and doesn't cost me anything to get!" and things of that ilk. Every day that passes, the temptation is a bit stronger, despite all I've poured into this character. And every time I think about it, I think, "But if I'm going to give all this up, why even stay in Serenwilde? Why even stay in Lusternia?"

My guild is hemorrhaging, very slowly, but seemingly irreversibly. You can't expect everyone to be stubborn indefinitely. I've completely given up fighting save when duty requires it because there's just no fun in it at all. It's hardly encouraging to have rubbed in your face your ineffectiveness and on top of that the implication that the hundreds of hours I've put into practice, system design, strategics, etc. is "you haven't really tried" or that I'm too stupid to see it. The hope that things will get better can get you through a lot of this, but when that hope fades, what's left but stubbornness? And there's not a single thing I can do about any of it, except suffer through it, or walk away.

I guess this thread is a last desperate attempt to find a better solution than those two; and at the same address a much larger problem that affects every one of us, every guild, every event, every person.

Oddly enough I agree with Gwylifar..Serenguard are horrible..just plain horrible. Its sad to see such a cool sounding guild be so limited. When I picture Serenguard I picture Drizzit with big swords! But alas we get a teletubby with a pointy stick..

I am offended, Torak. I have *TWO* pointy sticks!

Tell me you spelt Drizzt like that on purpose.

I havn't read R.A.Salvatore for quite a while, last one I read was Thousand Orcs(I beleive thats what it was called) Due to my new found Hicdom(no that isn't a word) I can't get his books anymore except for the right old ones. So I did a google search to double check and thats how it told me it was spelt. Besides I love the Cleric Quincet and can't wait for Artemis to destroy him!

"Oo oi!" Loved that guy.

But yes...back on topic, I know the original purpose of Gwylifar's thread wasn't to point out the Serenguard being bad, but it's...true. Sooo.

*brandishes his sticks menacingly*

I think the best approach is to raise the issue, as you just have, without offering solutions. Everyone has their own thoughts as to how a class should be balanced. When you begin to say - "if you could give my class this or nerf those skills" - the thread falls apart.

It is better to just state the problem, and back it up with tests. The tests showing the blademaster never hitting someone were convincing (I don't remember who posted that). It is also best to leave out anything having to do with people who have stocked up on credits, lessons, and artifacts. They have spent the money to have aspects of the game "broken" in their favor.

I would go so far as to say that anyone who uses an example involving a heavily artifacted player* automatically loses the argument. Same thing for anyone who claims they don't need to see things play out, to know how they will play out. There are few things on a MUD that are irreversible or irrepairable. If you don't have faith that the Admins will fix mistakes, you should find a different game to play. I know the Admins have faith in us. If you continue to be here, you must have faith in them. So, act like it!

When the set of problems with a class have been agreed upon, then you can start offering tweaks. It's best to do it through the Envoy system. Random thoughts on fixes should be put on the Ideas board, not as hijacks to the general topic posts.

* This obviously excludes threads regarding the impact and power balance of artifacts on the game.

It makes me sad, how rubbish Serenguard are.

I actually like the premise as much or more than Paladins, but in practise.. Eesh..