Unknown2005-03-27 14:33:00
QUOTE
Who's to say that Kethuru WASN'T trapped in Gaudiguch, and when it's released, there will be a sudden surprise - OMG, it's tainted1!11one211on
Or that Gaudiguch doesn't think "Hey, the Taint is simply a method of change. We love change. Let's help them!"
Or that Gaudiguch doesn't think "Hey, the Taint is simply a method of change. We love change. Let's help them!"
Suppose it does. That still doesn't establish game balance. There are seven factions written into the histories. If the only main axis of conflict continues to be Taint vs. non-Taint there won't ever be a balance. Seeing as the introduction of new factions will probably be layered the achievement of balance via new factions can only be temporary at best. None of the permutations work out.
Celest, Serenwilde, Gloriana vs. Magangora, Gaudiguch doesn't work.
Celest, Serenwilde vs. Magnagora, Glomdoring, Gaudiguch doesn't work.
Throw in Ackleberry and Hallifax and it becomes even more unbalanced.
Hallifax, Celest vs. Magnagora, Gaudiguch vs. Gloriana, Ackleberry, Serenwilde may be a little better. Even if it isn't perfect it at least establishes a second axis of conflict.
Silvanus2005-03-27 14:33:06
Why I think most people are upset over one room, because as far as I know, this is the first time the natural properties of a room thats been Tainted has been cleansed.
Off-topic: why is the raod around Magnagora not naturally Tainted? Wouldn't it be Naturally Tainted by the original Taint?
Off-topic: why is the raod around Magnagora not naturally Tainted? Wouldn't it be Naturally Tainted by the original Taint?
Asarnil2005-03-27 14:34:08
Simply put, as Glomdoring it will be tainted and therefore Magnagora won't have a confirmed enemy about conflict over tainting it later. Even as Glomdoring it will divert Serenwilde and/or Celest from targetting Magnagora - even if its only partially - which will help balance things out a bit more.
As Gloriana, it will eventually come into conflict with Magnagora (probably sooner rather than later), there is more chance of allying with Serenwilde/Celest and its pretty much been proven by Imperian that no matter how "dark" an organisation is supposed to be, without a properly dark thing to focus on it will not last long at that role - especially when it comes to a forestal organisation.
Sure it might unbalance things more when Gaudi/Hallifax get released, but even a 4 on 2 situation is better than a 3 on 1, though I have trust in the Gods that if it does just turn into a two side conflict like it is now, then steps will be taken so things never swing too far one way or another, even if it does spawn a huge amount of bitching on the forums.
As Gloriana, it will eventually come into conflict with Magnagora (probably sooner rather than later), there is more chance of allying with Serenwilde/Celest and its pretty much been proven by Imperian that no matter how "dark" an organisation is supposed to be, without a properly dark thing to focus on it will not last long at that role - especially when it comes to a forestal organisation.
Sure it might unbalance things more when Gaudi/Hallifax get released, but even a 4 on 2 situation is better than a 3 on 1, though I have trust in the Gods that if it does just turn into a two side conflict like it is now, then steps will be taken so things never swing too far one way or another, even if it does spawn a huge amount of bitching on the forums.
Manjanaia2005-03-27 14:38:01
QUOTE
Hallifax, Celest vs. Magnagora, Gaudiguch vs. Gloriana, Ackleberry, Serenwilde may be a little better.
Ok here's my problem with this:
OMGLIEKSNUGGLELIGHT!!1! Relationship
_______________________________________________________________
^Hallifax + Celest^ v |Mag+ Gaudiguch| v ^Seren + Gloriana + Ackelberry^
EDIT: Ok that didn't work. There's supposed to be an arrow pointing between Seren, Gloriana and Ackleberry alliance and the Celest and Haliifax one.
EDIT2: Maybe that works
EDIT3: Nah not really
Unknown2005-03-27 14:42:16
QUOTE
Why I think most people are upset over one room, because as far as I know, this is the first time the natural properties of a room thats been Tainted has been cleansed.
I wasn't around for it. I can see both perspectives though.
On one hand I can see being a little upset over not even having the oppurtunity to prevent the room change. On the otherhad there were what, three Divine there? By making it a safe room they saved a lot of needless XP loss.
Unknown2005-03-27 14:52:42
QUOTE
Ok here's my problem with this:Â OMGLIEKSNUGGLELIGHT!!1! Relationship
I think the friendliness of the Commune towards the Light is a little overplayed. In my view Glomdoring reinforces that relationship, Gloriana puts an end to it. Serenwilde can't achieve the anti-city stance some people harp on about it needing to have because of the strength of Magnagora. As it is Magnagora still overshadows the so-called alliance. A three way conflict provides alot more balance then a two-sided conflict does.
Gwylifar2005-03-27 15:09:01
Seems to me that what happened here is, a bunch of stuff was done leading up to this. People had a chance to influence this step during that period of time. Then a point was reached where an outcome of a single step was determined. A safe room was used to pause the action long enough for that outcome to be played out and seen.
To make a crude analogy, if someone gets you in a chasm, you don't complain because you didn't get a chance to stop it in between the first line of the death message and the last line of the death message. The time to stop it was before the death message began. If the MUD stops listening to your commands while it plays out a four-line (or whatever) death message, that's not cheating.
Only it's far, far more so, because this was just a tiny little step in a much larger event. And let's face it: we all know that this will eventually result in Glomdoring, not Gloriana, for OOC reasons. That is, we all know that those working for Glomdoring have an assured victory and those working for Gloriana have an assured defeat. And really, that's all right. Even those who want to RP fighting against Glomdoring are by-and-large okay with knowing that OOC we're going to get Glomdoring and for good reasons too.
Even so, those of you shouting about how unfair it is not to be able to influence an event's outcome should be the first in line to step up and say, boy, it sucks that no matter how hard people work to cleanse Gloriana, it won't work, we're going to get Glomdoring. So you should be the first to recognize the value of a token, RP-satisfying but ultimately ineffectual, step-in-an-event like this. It took some effort to get to this point and we're happy to be rewarded with something like this even if we know ultimately it will almost certainly have no impact on the outcome. Be a little gracious about your inevitable and unpreventable victory, would you? We worked hard for this tiny little table scrap from your banquet.
I just wish I hadn't missed it.
To make a crude analogy, if someone gets you in a chasm, you don't complain because you didn't get a chance to stop it in between the first line of the death message and the last line of the death message. The time to stop it was before the death message began. If the MUD stops listening to your commands while it plays out a four-line (or whatever) death message, that's not cheating.
Only it's far, far more so, because this was just a tiny little step in a much larger event. And let's face it: we all know that this will eventually result in Glomdoring, not Gloriana, for OOC reasons. That is, we all know that those working for Glomdoring have an assured victory and those working for Gloriana have an assured defeat. And really, that's all right. Even those who want to RP fighting against Glomdoring are by-and-large okay with knowing that OOC we're going to get Glomdoring and for good reasons too.
Even so, those of you shouting about how unfair it is not to be able to influence an event's outcome should be the first in line to step up and say, boy, it sucks that no matter how hard people work to cleanse Gloriana, it won't work, we're going to get Glomdoring. So you should be the first to recognize the value of a token, RP-satisfying but ultimately ineffectual, step-in-an-event like this. It took some effort to get to this point and we're happy to be rewarded with something like this even if we know ultimately it will almost certainly have no impact on the outcome. Be a little gracious about your inevitable and unpreventable victory, would you? We worked hard for this tiny little table scrap from your banquet.
I just wish I hadn't missed it.
Unknown2005-03-27 15:18:12
What He ^ said. I'm 99.9% sure we're screwed. We've almost been told this. We don't care. RPing tragedy can be just as rewarding as RPing success. I won't quit over it. I'm just greatful for the storyline.
Ialie2005-03-27 15:21:06
QUOTE(Gwylifar @ Mar 27 2005, 10:09 AM)
Seems to me that what happened here is, a bunch of stuff was done leading up to this. People had a chance to influence this step during that period of time. Then a point was reached where an outcome of a single step was determined. A safe room was used to pause the action long enough for that outcome to be played out and seen.
To make a crude analogy, if someone gets you in a chasm, you don't complain because you didn't get a chance to stop it in between the first line of the death message and the last line of the death message. The time to stop it was before the death message began. If the MUD stops listening to your commands while it plays out a four-line (or whatever) death message, that's not cheating.
Only it's far, far more so, because this was just a tiny little step in a much larger event. And let's face it: we all know that this will eventually result in Glomdoring, not Gloriana, for OOC reasons. That is, we all know that those working for Glomdoring have an assured victory and those working for Gloriana have an assured defeat. And really, that's all right. Even those who want to RP fighting against Glomdoring are by-and-large okay with knowing that OOC we're going to get Glomdoring and for good reasons too.
Even so, those of you shouting about how unfair it is not to be able to influence an event's outcome should be the first in line to step up and say, boy, it sucks that no matter how hard people work to cleanse Gloriana, it won't work, we're going to get Glomdoring. So you should be the first to recognize the value of a token, RP-satisfying but ultimately ineffectual, step-in-an-event like this. It took some effort to get to this point and we're happy to be rewarded with something like this even if we know ultimately it will almost certainly have no impact on the outcome. Be a little gracious about your inevitable and unpreventable victory, would you? We worked hard for this tiny little table scrap from your banquet.
I just wish I hadn't missed it.
To make a crude analogy, if someone gets you in a chasm, you don't complain because you didn't get a chance to stop it in between the first line of the death message and the last line of the death message. The time to stop it was before the death message began. If the MUD stops listening to your commands while it plays out a four-line (or whatever) death message, that's not cheating.
Only it's far, far more so, because this was just a tiny little step in a much larger event. And let's face it: we all know that this will eventually result in Glomdoring, not Gloriana, for OOC reasons. That is, we all know that those working for Glomdoring have an assured victory and those working for Gloriana have an assured defeat. And really, that's all right. Even those who want to RP fighting against Glomdoring are by-and-large okay with knowing that OOC we're going to get Glomdoring and for good reasons too.
Even so, those of you shouting about how unfair it is not to be able to influence an event's outcome should be the first in line to step up and say, boy, it sucks that no matter how hard people work to cleanse Gloriana, it won't work, we're going to get Glomdoring. So you should be the first to recognize the value of a token, RP-satisfying but ultimately ineffectual, step-in-an-event like this. It took some effort to get to this point and we're happy to be rewarded with something like this even if we know ultimately it will almost certainly have no impact on the outcome. Be a little gracious about your inevitable and unpreventable victory, would you? We worked hard for this tiny little table scrap from your banquet.
I just wish I hadn't missed it.
82578
I think I love you.
Erion2005-03-27 15:29:19
Me too. Gwylifar, have my baby.
Murphy2005-03-27 15:49:29
QUOTE(Silvanus @ Mar 27 2005, 01:07 PM)
You do realize Celestians and Serens alike have done that exact same thing, they are just not usually loud-mouth people (example, Murphy).
Amaru attacked and killed me in the prescence of Fain.
Amaru attacked and killed me in the prescence of Fain.
82281
Loudmouthed? I resent that.
On second thoughts yeh Murphy is rather vocal about a lot of things.
Unknown2005-03-27 17:52:31
It was only one room, as some guys in other topics said. The one thing I didn't like was the way Viravain did it, and how the room looks now. So sweet it makes me sick.
I really hope Gloriana won't be like that. If it ever comes into play, I'll immediately join it - to make sure that Glorianans... Glorianese... *grumble* who will try to act like Happy Tree Friends, will end like them.
I really hope Gloriana won't be like that. If it ever comes into play, I'll immediately join it - to make sure that Glorianans... Glorianese... *grumble* who will try to act like Happy Tree Friends, will end like them.
Niara2005-03-27 18:20:22
When I read this thread I wonder if there was that much whining in Achaea or Imperian before the forums got opened.
As soon as ANYTHING gets implemented that doesn't make you stronger or gives you an advantage the crying starts. I probably should just lean back and laugh but I cannot yet keep that necessary distance.
But back to the topic, in my eyes it was more just to show us that it is possible at all to cleanse Glomdoring. I think that Daevos would join Serenwilde before Gloriana would return so the pouty kids here should just remain quiet.
If/When Glomdoring becomes a Commune then it will ally itself with Magnagora within seconds, simply because Glomdoring doesn't want that big City as an enemy, especially when they both are neighbours. Yes, I know that other things are possible but in my eyes they are just unlikely.
I can easily imagine either Hallifax or Gaudiguch being completely tainted. Imagine the Taint entering one of the cities a moment before they went out of phase. That reminds me of the Earthdawn world, where similar things happened. Should that tainted place return it wouldn't necessarily have to become an active city again, it could become a very high-level hunting/questing ground too.
Oh, and I really wonder why people complain that Lisaera made that room a safe room for the event. Yes, you couldn't do anything but I would imagine having to face 3 angry gods would have been much worse.
As soon as ANYTHING gets implemented that doesn't make you stronger or gives you an advantage the crying starts. I probably should just lean back and laugh but I cannot yet keep that necessary distance.
But back to the topic, in my eyes it was more just to show us that it is possible at all to cleanse Glomdoring. I think that Daevos would join Serenwilde before Gloriana would return so the pouty kids here should just remain quiet.
If/When Glomdoring becomes a Commune then it will ally itself with Magnagora within seconds, simply because Glomdoring doesn't want that big City as an enemy, especially when they both are neighbours. Yes, I know that other things are possible but in my eyes they are just unlikely.
I can easily imagine either Hallifax or Gaudiguch being completely tainted. Imagine the Taint entering one of the cities a moment before they went out of phase. That reminds me of the Earthdawn world, where similar things happened. Should that tainted place return it wouldn't necessarily have to become an active city again, it could become a very high-level hunting/questing ground too.
Oh, and I really wonder why people complain that Lisaera made that room a safe room for the event. Yes, you couldn't do anything but I would imagine having to face 3 angry gods would have been much worse.
Faethan2005-03-27 18:34:43
Its not even the issue that the outcome of that little event couldn't be changed, its the fact that the other side had no chance for interaction, superficial or not. The safe room thing, as far as I've heard, had zero IC explanation. If the other side were given a chance to do something, even if it was against insurmountable odds, I would be happy.
EDIT: If the Gods on one side were able to make it a safe room, why couldn't the Gods on the other side (Raezon and Fain) remove the safe room, and disrupt the event? Surely Viravain is not a particularly strong Divine, and could be over-powered. Did Raezon and Fain say anything to their followers during this event?
EDIT: If the Gods on one side were able to make it a safe room, why couldn't the Gods on the other side (Raezon and Fain) remove the safe room, and disrupt the event? Surely Viravain is not a particularly strong Divine, and could be over-powered. Did Raezon and Fain say anything to their followers during this event?
Thorgal2005-03-27 19:00:46
I don't get the fuss about this really, ooc'ly, I point to my previous post on this thread, and ic'ly, the cleansed room is probably nothing more than exactly what Viravain said it to be:
A -reminder- of the once glorious Gloriana. Like you build a statue or monument to remember special people that -died- long ago...and aren't coming back.
A -reminder- of the once glorious Gloriana. Like you build a statue or monument to remember special people that -died- long ago...and aren't coming back.
Rashidat2005-03-27 19:58:13
Daganev and Cron both make very stong points.
EDIT: I refer to two these two points
and
It is very difficult to get poeple to grasp minor points of different. The guild system also limits this. You can not go against the will of your leadership without receiving a good beat down. As such the quality of the guild/commune/city is dependent on the ability of the leaders to play the shades of gray.
Unfortunately, people are more interested in winning (see this whole thread) as opposed to roleplaying. There is a natural reflex to metagame. People take into account the size and strength of one faction over another.
In everyday life people make those calcuation, only they are colored by biased beliefs, delusion, ego, grudges, ideology, and a good deal of ignorance. The exceptions are the people who can see above that. Those exceptions are often labelled traitors, heretics, cranks and idiots, and then they are beaten down.
Biased beliefs can be pervasive in one community. In game there is no such thing as a real community. Each organization is a collection of random strangers with various levels of ignorance about the backstory. Combine this with disagreements over what direction history dictates they take, and it begins to all fall apart.
The saving graces of Lusternia are manses, clans and the retention of class upon leaving your guild. If you want to break the mold, there are some powerful tools around to let you do it. You can also gather like-minded individuals into groups that will share the same biases and ignorances. It is a might bit better than just hoping people will coincidentally share those ideas when thrown into an organization.
I would hope that the future releases of city and communes are based off such groups. I would hate to see one of these places dumped out and then have everyone flood the place competing for their vision of how it should be. The unity of vision and purpose should predate the actual city/commune structures being released.
EDIT: I refer to two these two points
QUOTE
really only the anti-magick stuff stays. Anti-magick is like the Taint, in its own little way. Its a nice simple concept people can grasp and don't have to read 30 page papers on the culture of science to know how to properly RP it.
and
QUOTE
If the only main axis of conflict continues to be Taint vs. non-Taint there won't ever be a balance.
It is very difficult to get poeple to grasp minor points of different. The guild system also limits this. You can not go against the will of your leadership without receiving a good beat down. As such the quality of the guild/commune/city is dependent on the ability of the leaders to play the shades of gray.
Unfortunately, people are more interested in winning (see this whole thread) as opposed to roleplaying. There is a natural reflex to metagame. People take into account the size and strength of one faction over another.
In everyday life people make those calcuation, only they are colored by biased beliefs, delusion, ego, grudges, ideology, and a good deal of ignorance. The exceptions are the people who can see above that. Those exceptions are often labelled traitors, heretics, cranks and idiots, and then they are beaten down.
Biased beliefs can be pervasive in one community. In game there is no such thing as a real community. Each organization is a collection of random strangers with various levels of ignorance about the backstory. Combine this with disagreements over what direction history dictates they take, and it begins to all fall apart.
The saving graces of Lusternia are manses, clans and the retention of class upon leaving your guild. If you want to break the mold, there are some powerful tools around to let you do it. You can also gather like-minded individuals into groups that will share the same biases and ignorances. It is a might bit better than just hoping people will coincidentally share those ideas when thrown into an organization.
I would hope that the future releases of city and communes are based off such groups. I would hate to see one of these places dumped out and then have everyone flood the place competing for their vision of how it should be. The unity of vision and purpose should predate the actual city/commune structures being released.
Asarnil2005-03-27 19:58:23
QUOTE(Niara @ Mar 28 2005, 04:50 AM)
When I read this thread I wonder if there was that much whining in Achaea or Imperian before the forums got opened.
82678
Yes there was. Be glad you never read the elders board, or were in certain guilds/cities. Or subscribed to certain newsgroups/bulletin boards.
Thorgal2005-03-27 20:06:43
QUOTE(Rashidat @ Mar 27 2005, 09:58 PM)
Daganev and Cron both make very stong points.
82729
People should start their post with that line more often, so I know not to read the whole thing.
Just kidding of course.
Roul2005-03-27 20:08:50
I passed over it for that very reason. =/
Shiri2005-03-27 20:16:07
Room 2. Muaha.
