Now I'd like to start this thread by pointing out that I don't believe in good and evil.

Magnagorans often complain that others view them and the Taint as evil, and the Celest and the Light as good and fuzzy, when really both are just powers with conflicting ideals. I've been thinking about this, and I think to be honest you can't blame them in some cases.

The Taint is supposed to be merely about change. But when you think about how 'evil' is thought of OOC, you can understand it. Sometimes people can't help bringing OOC thoughts IC. Like in that tolerance thread. I'm not saying it's wrong, but I couldn't roleplay an extremely racist person. Credit to Erion and Silvanus for being able to do it so well.

Now look at some of the skills that are involved in tainted people only skillsets. Nihilism. Using things like torture, crucify (that might be necromancy, I'll get to that) and skills like that, using demons, kind of plays on real-world 'evil' creations. Demons, 'devils', all represent 'evil'. Something like necromancy would be viewed as evil. Undead, things like crucify as seen above, are often viewed as evil.

Bearing that in mind, I can't help but think that Magnagora was designed to play an evil sort of role.

Now look at Celest. They follow Supernals, who preach justice and compassion (although they also preach wiping the taint away as strongly as possible, and it is that unrelenting, unforgiving, untolerable attitude that should be shown more often by Celestians). Isune is the 'Wings of Compassion'. That sort of thing is regarded as 'good' and 'true' IRL. Celest is affiliated with things like angels and cherubs, often regarded OOC as 'good'.

I think Sacraments is a well designed skillset. Things like heretic and infidel are also the sort of thing that should be played on more.

I think Celest and Magnagora were not intended to play roles as one-dimensional as good and evil. But I don't think you could get a truly evil and yet law abiding Celestian, and a lot of Magnagorans appear from the outside as very ruthless and, as some people might describe it, evil.

Maybe this argument doesn't make any sense to anyone else, or seems totally wrong. But I know what I mean. Magnagora and Celest both seem in some areas designed to be evil and good respectively.

It does make sense to me as I see it exactly the same way.

Good and evil are based on the perceptions of the opposing side.
It is more that when one side attempts to further their goals the step on the toes of the opposing side.


Now yes... Magnagoran guilds are able to torture people, crucify people, but other guilds in Seren and Celest can do things just about as nasty, they are just called prettier things.


Like the fact that my cudgel has some sort of cactur attack and impales you with multiple splinters.. well that sounds pretty damn torturous to me..
Also Goring.. We bow our heads and impale you with our horns...

Celestian aquamancers can drown you to death, but anyway all the guilds have skills for hurting, killing and so forth. The Magnagoran guilds just call them as they are. They don't have pretty names.


If that makes any sense.

Magnagora may not want to be called evil from an IC sense, but how viewing torture as beauty, and careing more about domination than what is best for another person is called evil. If you don't see that as evil you have problems.

From an OOC perspective, it's always going to be good and evil, for sure.
Magnagora uses things that symbolise evil to us IRL as part of it's city and guilds (like the aforementioned torture, demons, etc.). Geomancer's could get away with not being an EVIL guild so much if the premise that working with Tainted earth twisted and demented them.
When we see dominance and ruthless war-faring, we think, Uh-oh, = BAD = EVIL!
IF there really was a city IRL that had an undead army of warriors and procured the use of demons, I'd have some very serious stereotypical labelling to do

That doesn't mean that we have to bring our OOC perceptions and social constructions IC with us, though it's nearly impossible not to. I know I do. If I wanted to make a dark character that would be considered 'evil' if he existed IRL, then sure as hell (no pun intended) I'd be creating a Magnagoran.

If someone calls a Magnagoran evil, I reckon they have two options. Embrace the label and tear out their heart , or consider them to be an overly-verbose preacher - an ignorant zealot that doesn't know the 'truth' of it

Didn't someone find a pre-opening interview in which Estarra referred to "the evil city"? It's just shorthand, and a handle to grab new players. It's the outer layer of the onion. If Magnagora wants to say the onion is a lot more than that layer, more power to 'em. Though it'd be more convincing if they were a little more accepting of that outer layer and admitted it was there.

Just to kill the thread... I don't think Hitler ever labeled the Nazi party the National Socialist Evil Party.

I thought the "codicil" or whatever that complicated word Gwylifar used was meant you couldn't do that just to kill the thread.

yes, therby saying I'm going to kill the thread to ensure no death of thread ensues...

... Why would you do that?

double and tripple and quadruple reverse pyschology methods so that no matter what happens I'm safe.

Oh yeah.

Those.

Unlike most of my citymates, I am EVIL!

I enjoy eating babies for breakfast, torturing innocent seren and celestian novices for days on end, just to feast on their delicious corpses after nailing them to an iron cross.

I will rain down destruction on those that dare to cross my life consuming conquest and will stand cackling insanely on a high hill with a dead tree next to me, while the moon casts my demonic silhouette.

In real life, I play viola, listen to classic music and literally don't even kill a mosquito.

That's exactly what I think. There's no such thing as good and evil, only ideals and perspective.

Like Squall said in FF8!

Coincidence. I honestly have never played that.

In real life I keep people alive for money. Literally. Little old lady has to pay up if she thinks she is going to have her oxygen tonight. "Oh whats that Bertha? You are going to tell the cops? Corpses can talk B*tch"
*accidently slips her 50mg of Morphine*
"Oops whats that.. you can't breath.. Oh. . sorry can't save you.. says here you are a DNR"

In lusterina I am a happy little faeling that likes handing out flowers.

And Murphy is rapidly heading in that direction, all those present in the lastest viravain untainted will attest to that

EDIT: And if you lok at his description too

Perhaps you should find a different clinic then. There are many places that will aid people without money and gladly underpay you for your services.

As for good evil in our basin. I think it is quite obvious that the tainted are evil. fiendish viscanti doesn't sound like something good to me. Nor do all the skills mentioned earlier. If Celest is good I could not tell for the 'light' does stand for great ideals, how it is obtained is more then troublesome at times and might be concidered just as evil as the tainted. concequently my character Elgar left Celest for he felt Celest had forsaken the true ideals of the light and had turned into a corruped bunch no better then magnagora. So he is now a Serenwilder and hates cities for their corruption, yet is still willing to sell potions to them so in a way he too is evil, or very foolish.

Anyway the point is I don't think any of these organisations are truelly 'good' but that only individuals (perhaps even in magnagora) can be 'good'.

Hey, that wasn't my word, it was a quote from the jargon dictionary. (Not that I wouldn't've used it.)

ObOnTopic: There's one other factor in the whole "taint/evil" question that Magnagora likes to avoid, and that's how the taint is linked to a being that was essentially eating Lusternia. Now, a few of them seek to separate that link, and say that taint is a sort of "useful byproduct" of Kethuru rather than being actually linked to Kethuru's devouring tendencies. But most of the time it seems that the whole connection to the Vernal Wars is addressed by going into the other room and doing something else.