How typical to say it wasn't serenwilde it was just some members of serenwilde.

Yes, its called Pandora's box, not herme's box.

Ah. Well, the first part is STILL fine, as the cleansing was going fine until Raezon (a Magnagoran God! He's the patron of a Magnagoran guild! You have to blame Magnagora now or you're being biased! >_<) encouraged Viravain to do a Seal. SO. The conclusion is obvious, and it ain't Daganev's.

Right, precisely. So, one, it wasn't Serenwilde, but it was some Serenwilders. No denying that, and I'm not saying that that means that "the Serenwilde mentality" didn't lead to the cleansing of Gloriana. Can't see why I would.

But daganev, you really need to stop embarassing yourself. Magnagorans are always claiming "we're not all about brute force and violence, we're about subtle trickery". Guess what: one of your patrons just used subtle (well, not that subtle, but...) trickery to turn something 100% in the opposite direction, and then you actually want to blame the people going in the first direction for that?

Not only is that ludicrous and idiotic, it's also in one fell swoop dismissing every single thing Magnagora has ever done out of trickery, because apparently they get no credit or blame for any of it, only the people that they tricked do. So congratulations. In your personal delusion, Serenwilde is responsible for Viravain's tainting, and Magnagora has never, ever accomplished anything. Is that really a preferable place to be than where the rest of us are, in what's actually going on?

Can't have it both ways.

For your edification, here is the prophecy I obtained from Chuchip, Great Spirit of the Seren, on Avechary 9th, 113 CE:

"The strength of the boughs of Summer is greater than anyone knows, but fears and timidity weaken the bark's song. If courage can be found, life shall bloom whole in the despoiled lands, and what was once lost will be found again, reborn. But if cowardice stifles Summer's voice and dark words twist the branches of her heart, hope dies in the despoiled lands as dusk swallows the dawn. To see a new age of nature's glory, let the rose grow strong and protect her from the poisoned words on the winds of corruption."

Based on this, we endeavored to give Lady Viravain courage, and shelter her from dark words that would twist her. It took a lot of effort and investment of time and planning. We were, so far as I know, entirely successful at both efforts for a time. But when the "dark words" of mortals failed to penetrate our efforts to block them, a God stepped up with His own dark words and we couldn't stop those.

I also note that had we not made the attempt, the dark words would still have been there, according to this prophecy. The words might have been different, but the outcome would very likely have been exactly the same.

No, what is typical is trying to blame Serenwilde and fault it with going astray from it's "forestal" ways and turning like a city or whatever. Sacrificing it's histories, etc, etc, etc That is so lame.

Edit: Missed something, Pandora was a trick to ruin humanity. The box was given to Pandora by Hermes. Called Pandora's box because thanks to their naive ways and curiosity she opened the box and in comes doom.

In all the histories that you know of in lusternia have you ever seen any Large scale project work as intedned and not end in the disaster or destruction of something?

In the histories Serenwilde recognized this, and tried to push people away from such events.

Magnagora or its views, depending on how detailed you want to be, thrive and excell in such situations.

Make whatever assumptions about where my arguments are comming from that you like.

Star of Celest. Necromentate.

...

In case you haven't noticed, when the whole Basin was working to heal the Basin everything was just fine. Also, Magnagora doesn't thrive in times of disaster... Magnagora is the product of one of those times of disaster. Maybe Magnagora should've been dead, but no... They all turned into monsters.

Can't you understand that what Serenwilde basically do with Viravain was to encourage Her to not give up? We didn't at all tell Her to engage on a "large" scale work where we didn't know or had any idea of the consequences or the method being used. Had Viravain gone from the begining "I want to use the Seal of Nature", Serenwilde goes "NO, I don't think so"

All big projects didn't fail because they were engaged on, the only real long term project for the whole Basin was the healing of such Basin... It was the city-folk inspired by Ladantine that decided to be smart and fast and accelerate the process of Healing through things that they didn't know a single thing about. Did Ladantine even take precautions as to simply send a recon team to see what was Astral about through a thorough exploration? Did he bother to investigate "his" discovery before jumping to action? NO.

Also, you might as well view the racing of the Vernal Gods as a large scale project, and guess what it achieved it's goal. Take a look at Avechna.

I don't know about the star, but the necromantate zapped peoples mana who were in the city for quite some time, but I'm not sure I would consider those in the realm of HUGE projects, but I guess its the closest thing.


As you people can't see the big picture of what I'm talking about, I'm going to say this last thing.


The 'reason' why these accelerated massive worldchanging projects 'fail' (I should really say have unintended results) is really of no consequence.

Even the very making of the races resulted in the death of Elder gods.
Making avencha was the result of all other vernal gods dissapearing as well.

Its a common thread throughout Lusternia history. All I'm saying is I would expect city dwellers to ignore such trends and threads, but I would also expect communes to be more aware of them and not support them, no matter how good intentioned the idea is.


Magnaogra turning into monsters is exactly how they thrived. Because Old Celest died completely, Ackelberry dissapeard, and Glomdoring Died, and HAlifax and Gadasdf got stuck in time. SErenwilde avoided it and did not have to deal with it. But again, whatever.

Because once again only Daganev is capable of reading comprehension and understanding the big picture. You need a vacation with a Vegas showgirl.

It was more like the other way around, especially for the latter. Historically it can be seen fairly easily like this:
Elder gods died >>>
Mortals made.
Vernal gods died >>>
Avechna made.

But that isn't actually the case when you look closer, because it was their INTENTION to do so, not a result. The elder gods DELIBERATELY fragmented into the mortal races, they didn't just randomly explode.

And okay, you might be right about the necromentate. That was more part of the process, though, as the end indeed came out as intended and was working just fine.

And nothing at all went wrong with the Star. So yeah. You're definately just imagining that trend, so the whole point about cities not noticing them and Communes noticing them is, well, moot.

And again you ignore the many other people who say the same thing.

Why must you personalize every arguement to who is saying the argument.

When arguments responded back to me, are not addressing the points I'm making, I find it useless to continue the argument.

Just like in the other thread, when I was talking about this, and I then got told 'No you see, your arguing that Serenwilde is to blame, your not arguing that Srenwilde should take this opportunity to look at itself closer (which is what I kept repeating, over and over again)'

Stop making assumptions about what people are thinking or what their intentions on posting are. Theres no reason not to take people at face value here.



Shiri: You make a good point, so I'll revize my blanket statement. Inorder for something big and world changing to happen in Lusternia, a seemingly unwanted result must happen first. So if something is happening and you can't see a 'negetive' related to it, be affraid.

I think it's assuming an awful lot to claim it will always turn out like that, however.

The failure of experiments were of no consequences? Are you kidding me or only trying to kid yourself? It was thanks to these two failures that Lusternia has met Doom not once, but twice. Thankfylly today it was at a lesser scale...

And regarding Magnagora, again, you are lying to yourself. Every thing that was tainted was practially destroyed and turned into something else. That isn't particularly thriving. That is getting crippled and die just to be replaced with something else. Picture yourself a ghost town being repopulated. Hallifax/Gaudiguch, they were victims of their own mutual distrust not the Taint. They disappeared, but we don't know their fate for certain. Hey, they could've had found a stairway to paradise, and Ackleberry too. Celest? It was thanks to Marylinth that Kethuru didn't keep on destroying everything. Do you actually think that Kethuru would've stopped with toying with somethings after His release in the form of the Taint? Celest sacrificed itself so Kethuru could once again be resealed.

Oh, and Glomdoring? The exact same thing that happened to Magnagora happened to them (Gloriana). Just that in this case, the commune people were given a heads-up by the centaurs and others and decided to stay. Unlike Magnagora, that thanks to providing the magnicifent link from Prime to Astral ended up dying upon the triggering of the explosion. Picture yourself a nucear bomb detonating... If you had happened to hold the bomb in your hand, you'd die instantly (in this case things turned into undead, don't think they thrived.. they died, and they would've died definately had Kethuru gone out and play entirely). Everything else just suffered the aftershock and the expansion of the bomb absorbing the whole radiation.

Edit: And by the way, Ellindel and Glinshari picture themselves as the commune during this time of trying to restore Gloriana, Viravain in Her first efforts the whole commune together, after She stole the seal Herself engaging on Her very own Cosmic Hope thanks to Raezon. Serenwilde had not control over this, had we... We would've stopped the effort cold right on it's tracks before it even started.

This doesn't mean anyone can't engage on long term project to do something, if they are careful enough not to mess things they don't understand. The commune has always done what they've been doing since they days of baby Basin.

Given that Lusternia has a large real world mystical inspiration, with as estarra said "many authors" the an often used plot device and concept in them is the idea of 'conservation of energy' or 'equal exchange' The more you make me think about this the more I realized I should have kept my mouth shut...

Damn that Raezon.. always messing things up for the innocent tree people.

When being undead gives you +2 str and +2int... I don't really see that as being a handycap...

HOw many people complain about Lichdom because they think its 'overpowered'?
Urlach and his undead warriors were the most feard warriors of his time, that doesn't sound like much of a handycap to me.

If a forests goal is survival, Glomdoring did that, while Gloriana didn't... which one is worst off? Evolutionary speaking, Gloriana was a failure.

I love all these peoples posting all these "I told you so" crap. Seriously, if you were so damn smart to know what would happen, why didn't you do anything to stop it? Last time I recalled, Mags didn't want Viravain to complete the rituals because they didn't want Gloriana to be brought back, not because they predicted she would attempt to use the Seal to do so and let Kethuru loose. Fact of the matter is what's done is done, and we already have 3 or so threads on this same topic, why are people dragging it here as well?

Oh but what took for magical Magnagora to become undead? The death of half the Basin. How glorious isn't it? Also, you wouldn't even be able to get +2 str and night had Kethuru been done with you entirely. Thank Marylinth for giving you the chance of making the next step of evolution.

Evolutionary speaking, Gloriana still lives... it just does as Glomdoring. Glomdoring didn't exist as another being before the Taint, the Taint twisted and changed Gloriana. Picture Gloriana infected by a virus, just to later on create the necessary antibodies to be immune... with the unfortunate product of suffering some sort of cripplement. You don't see a Glomdoring commune at the moment out there, do you? Also, Glomdoring went insane.

I agree with Daganev's assessment of the failure of large scale projects of change in Lusternia to some extent, but from what I saw (and I certainly could have missed quite a bit) Serenwilde was unaware of Viravain's plan to touch the Ravenwood tree before she announced on CT "Come watch me untain Glomdoring right now!!" From what I heard, people were surprised to hear this, and a few even expressed concern. OOCly, I knew something bad was coming for exactly the reasons Daganev stated. ICly, I couldn't say a thing because I had been named in association with DoC, and if I said "Don't fix Glomdoring" they'd throw me out. (That's Faethan's reasoning, at least) I'd really blame Viravain and Raezon for this, rather than any mortal organization. That's also the main difference between this and Cosmic Hope. If Gregori had been like "I'm going to use the nature seal to fix Glomdoring! Wooohooo!" and we all supported him, then I'd agree with Daganev's assessment of the situation entirely.

Is engaging on large scale projects a failure when going slowly from point A to point B, up to Point Z? If so, Ellindel and Glinshari would've failed completely when trying to heal the fae. The whole failure of projects is false. Or you would be ignoring the making of Avechna, and that the Soulless are no longer completely infused within the Basin (the Basin was greatly healed already... the Taint was a relapse of the illness.