I realise this is a bit late, but yeah, Protestant Churches don't pray to Mary, or to the Saints, because they have no power of any kind (from a Protestant viewpoint, I mean). They were just human, albeit good people, but nothing special. Praying to only God the Father and the Son is one of the 5 pillars of Protestantism.

Zoroasterianism is polytheistic, unless you wish to deny either Good or Evil. If you did, it wouldn't be Zoroasterianism anymore. Two Gods= Ahura Mazda and Ahriman.

Edit: Sorry, I just skimmed rapidly through the posts... so I ignored that Daganev had already stated this. Regarding God, there is only one God, but He has presented Himself through many ways, and is divided into three aspects so the Infinite can be more comprehended by a mind that is finite. Just as the views of monistic Hinduism=Visnu, Shiva, etc. many faces of One God.

Edit: I think you could consider the Trinity as a way to condense the Triple Goddess (Son is the maiden), the Father (the Mother), the Holy Ghost (the Crone) into one unite identity, that Indentity being... call it The Singularity. Notice though, that I believe God has no sex, or at best He ios androgenous.

Edit; On topic, has anyone heard the rumour of some people wanting to bury the Pope's heart at Krukov(?)

God will strike you down for posting about your...change...in the same thread as the pope!

Which god?

Bob

Daganev I meant in Raan's opinion, you ninjaed me.



Catholics believe that God is the true almighty supreme power. When you pray to a Saint your more praying through them. I am taught that you are not praying to ask the Saint for anything other than to ask God to hear your prayers.

Akraasiel and his gender confusion got him forum ignored by me. So this doesn't make much sense. However I can deduce that someone said Christianity involves multiple Gods. Sorry, no. The Doctrine of the Trinity teaches three aspects of one God. And as for Satan being a God... umm, no?

I was just listening to the radio, and they said that a Black Pope means a Pope from the Jesuit order. The prophecy that says the world will end when there is a Black Pope is a common snide remark said to Jesuit Cardinals. (I guess they are considered extremists)

Christianity does recognise that other gods exist, it just commands people to follow a singular deity.

since when?
They don't have a name for god.. its just god.. So how could they recognize other gods?

"False gods" could be taken to mean either "they don't exist" or "they're not the true one," I think.

*roll*

The only thing I can see in christianity that might lead one to think its polyhthiestic is the Trinity or how they think of Saints. Anything else is just wishfull thinking.

To try to stick a 'teaching' onto a system of beliefs that is obviously and inherently contraditory to that system just because you can twist a few words around is in my opinion an exorcise in arrogance.

The whole assumption that one group influenced another as to thier religious beliefs implies that no two groups of people can come up with similar concepts independatly of eachother, or that the same source was given to two groups.

... no.

I believe Quigdyboo is referring to the First Commandment. Which, if taken seperate from 2000 years of mainstream Church dogma could imply that there are other gods, they are just lesser spirits and not worthy of recognition.

My reading of Genesis is that some of the stories imply that there were multiple gods and some do not. Those that do culminate in the commandment that the Israelites will only worship the one god that delivered them from Egypt, whom is proclaimed the mightiest of them all. Though granted it is fuzzy and open to much debate, of which I won't get into since it's splitting hairs IMO.

As for why Catholics pray to saints, the theological reason was explained well, but not the historical. Christmas was a conversion of Rome's Saturnalia and some Persian holiday celebrated in the SE regions of the Roman empire. When they all became Christian, they didn't want to lose all their original holidays (which themselves came from Babylon and Egypt, etc.). I suspect that the original Catholic Church, which grew out of Rome, wanted to hold on toe other traditions. (Sort of like how some atheists in America still celebrate Christmas because they enjoy the holiday and traditions even if they don't retain the religious meaning.) One tradition of Rome was praying to a pantheon of multiple gods. That tradition would easily be maintained by saying you pray to saints and angels who in turn will petition God directly for you. The Protestants do not trace their cultural lineage to the Roman Empire and its cultural traditions like the Catholics do, which is why you don't have such prayer with them.

Zorastrianism still exists in small numbers in India. I think they do lots of fire rituals and are derided as "fire worshipers" by those that don't understand their religion.

I can understand that point. Some translations have that commandment down as, "Do not worship any God but Me." This could imply that there are other gods but that God wants His followers to worship Him and Him alone. I have read other translations that may follow this point. However, the translation, "Do not take false idols" might imply something different. It might mean do not take gods that are not me, which would reinforce the afformentioned point. However it may mean do not take another idol, because they are not a god. Which would bend towards the point that God is the only God. It is a grey area however, because of the multiple translations and interpretations.

I really want to re word my description of praying to Saints and Mary. Catholic teaching says that by doing this, we are not worshipping the Saints/Mary in anyway. We are asking them merely for guidance, and for them to pray for us as well.



I think the Hail Mary might be predominately a Catholic prayer. I'm really only including this to point out Catholic teaching.

I don't know about christian theology, but in Jewish theology, the world is complicated.

G-d when the world was covered with kings and kingdoms that was the anology given. G-d was considered the king of kings... but it wasn't said that other kings don't exist. At the same time, the anology was not, the best king out of all the kings, it was the king of kings.

A second problem you run into, is that the words for G-d all have banal meanings as well, except for YHVH, but even that is argued in some circles to mean "is, was, willbe."

According to Jewish tradition this is the historical history of religion up to the point of Abraham. I.e. the 20 'generations' of humanity.

Adam knew of G-d's existance. Seth's son (3rd 'generation') recognized, the existance of angels, and saw they all had unique jobs and abilities. His generation began to communicate to angels to get 'quick fixes' and figured out how to command them.(e.g. communicate to the angel of water cycles to get more water in his area for better crops) As time went on, these angels were used for everything people needed, using them for thier own needs. This was the episode of the tower of babble. At this point, G-d 'scattered the languages' meaning that people lost the knowledge of how to directly communicate with angels on a level that would make them do thier bitting. As people got confused between angels and gods, they began to pray to the angels as if they were gods. However, there were no clear results. So people would pick and choose which gods they now wanted to follow the most, creating different cultures and religions and spreading about the world doing as they please. This led to the Flood. Noah had 3 sons, one son went off and became the West, one group became the east, and one group became Africa. They each started thier own schools, not knowing much about what was what in the theological world, but having some direct contact with G-d. Then, 10 generations later (a part of the history I'm fuzzy on, I'm sure important changes happened) Abraham recognizes that all the statues and amulets that his father is in the business of making, can't be reality. He looks to nature, and notices that no one thing in nature is Always dominant over another, and comes to the conclusion that something outside of nature must be its creator. Issac then recognizes that this creator has a strict system of justice, or 'laws of nature'. Then Jacob learns that these laws of nature are run by angels, creatures you can communicate and fight with. (again, the 3rd generation) 236 years later, the Jewish people recognize a personal relationship with this creator as being 'the god who took them out of egypt' However, at this point in time, the term god means any spiritual being that has powers in this earth. Thus the literal word 'elohim' meaning 'powers.'

Judaism does not deny that its possible to 'pray' to other beings and get results done. The world could be said to be a giant beocracy, with G-d as King, the 9 levels of angels as various ministries and sub ministries and all the way down to desk clerks. The problem however, is putting these other spiritual beings on the level of G-d, or thinking you can replace G-d with them. So to take college as an example. Yes you can talk to the secretary in the office of admisions to find out how to get into school, and you might even beable to butter her up to get you in, but its better to ask the Presidant of the school since you have a personal connection with them, and they can get any secretary to do anything that you need to get done. This leads to a whole other discussion.

I hope that explained a few things. I don't know what the christian theology is like, but from what pepole have said here, it doesn't appear to be too consistant to be able to draw conclusions from one incident or phrase to the next.

So the first two commandments, if translated literally mean this.
1. I am, was, and will be the Lord, your Lord, the one who personally took you out of Egypt.
2. Do not have any other powers before me.
3. Do not make any graven images of these powers, for I am was and will be the Lord over all, and I am a *power that punishes.(normally tanslated as a 'Jealous god') Where My enemies are concerned, I keep in mind the sin of the fathers for to the third and fourths,
4.But for those who love Me and keep My commandments, I show love for thousands.

While this is the most literal translation, it is -not- the simplest and contextualy understanable understanding. Thus why you never see it translated that way. "Its just too complicated"

I believe that fire in Zorastrianism is symbolic of Ahura Mazda, the good god, and that they do not pray to the fire, but to what it represents. Much in the same way Christianity uses the cross as a focal point for Jesus Christ. They don't worship the cross itself, but what it represents, and the same is true with Zorastrians and fire.

Why do people call it a cross? =\\ It's a crucifix. Get it right! A cross infers it's equi-armed.

crucifix is nasty sounding