Since we all know Stag/Moon are frankly subpar combined with the Serenguard skills, I propose the following:

Give them archery!

Noooo! Serenguard already make me think of Robin Hood far too much. Let's not give them an Archery specialization instead of Stag or Moon. If you want, just incorporate Archery into Knighthood.

Yes, give them pre-nerf Warden bowmanship from Imperian. That'll show em

Dont even joke like that.

Heh, I knew you'd like that one Daevos.

I, personally, would really love to have some form of archery. I'd like anything that can at least have a shot (get it?) at doing damage from outside of the target's room. I've witnessed Geomancers boulderblasting a group far too many times, and I'm jealous.

I was thinking along the Robin Hood angle, actually. Don't see why that's such a bad thing..

I reckon it would be a nice little addition, that makes sense from an in-game perspective and whatever.

Course, it'd be an option, so they could choose to be a blademaster or bonecrusher if they wanted.

Let's just say my conception about Robin Hood has completely degenerated when I saw Robin Hood- Men in Tights.

Personally I view the Serenguard as a barbaric tribe maybe like the Heruli or even Vikings, (though I recall Estarra saying on a post saying that the Serenguard were like Arthurian warriors chosen by the fae(?) to protect the Serenwilde). Though, it would be great if we could have Archery as an specialization, for every warrior guild, instead of either Bone Crusher or Blademasters or just incorporated into Chivalry (or was it Knighthood... I seen to have forgotten )like Achaea.

Edit: Taurians= berserkers. Yes. Serenguard is a barbarian tribe not knightly warriors, imo. At least not like I view the Ur'Guard a la Knights Templar or Teutonic Knights.

Just because I can, every seen The 13th Warrior? Those were Serenguard-like in action.

Lo, there do I see my father

Lo, there do I see my mother and my sisters
and my brothers

Lo, there do I see the line of my people back
to the beginning

Lo, they do call to me
They bid me take place among them
in the Halls of Valhalla

Where the brave may live forever...

I really want to see archery incorporated somewhere. If it came to just one guild I would immediately join that guild, even if it was tainted.

If we get Archery it'll be an alternative to Blademaster and Bonecrusher, and available to all the Knighthood-using guilds, most likely. Wouldn't help with the warrior imbalance or the Serenguard imbalance.

A total reshift of the Serenguard that takes them from warriors to rangers is unlikely, but would fit. And then rangeryness could by like overpowered.

Heh, the serenguard underpoweredness is seriously overdone, the only things stag and moon need are some skill adjustments.

The only reason they don't have any amazing fighters is cause they barely have any big credit spenders that boost their blades with elemental and other combat runes, and crappy skills like stagcurse and darkmoon that serve no purpose but to afflict, and doing bad at that.

Stag and moon skillsets seem like a bunch of nifty skills put together that just don't cooperate, it has awesome skills, it's just that most serenguard just plain suck at combat, not everyone of course, but the majority, and none of them has any arties to make up for it.

If you are going to say that Stag/Moon are up to par with Sacraments/Necromancy... well, that's just wrong.

Thanks for the votes of confidence. Especially since we know how incredibly useful the abilities in Moon and Stag alone are. Considering you have been a Serenguard before, I'd actually thought you know how crappy the SGs are, but I guess not. Please teach me how to fight decently well with Stag or Moon, oh wise one. Do you Besides Gore, Stagcurse, and Stagstomp, tell me how I could land a successful offensive? Whereas Paladins get heretic/infidel/inquisition and judgement to finish off fights, or Ur'guards get crucify, sacrifice, contagion, hunger, we get those craptacular aforemention abilities.

Or how about Moon Serenguard? Lash is worthless if you can't absolve/wrack/toadcurse, wane is ungodly slow, Darkmoon is a joke, and most knights have no intelligence for effective moonbursts. Please please tell me how to be an effective fighter if you're so damn sure that most of us are worthless fighters.

Actually, just ignore this whole post, as it was based on the assumption Thorgal was taking Moondancers into account. Even lash and wane, while good for Moondancers, can't help a Serenguard, and they're about the two most useful things.

I didn't say Stag and Moon were on par with sacraments or necromancy, cause they aren't, I said they have some good skills, but none of it cooperates.

Sacraments offers skills like heretic, infidel, inquisition that work fine on their own, like heretic, or heretic/infidel, but they also work towards inquisition, which is devastating, especially for paladins, if you compare them to the other warrior archetypes. Judgement isn't too useful for paladins, but it's awesome for celestines, etc.

Necromancy has Omen, which works excellent combined with puissance as a knight, or with torture/sensitivity as a nihilist, necromancy sucks for any other offensive tactics other than Omen though, but it's still effective that way, as long as the target doesn't have focus spirit, which cures omen.

But stag and moon don't seem to have any abilities that augment primary skills a lot, abilities like Darkmoon and Stagcurse pretty much give a bad image of the entire skillset, cause they suck so hard...but even if they WERE actually good, it still wouldn't change a lot, cause they don't cooperate with anything else, all it does is give some afflictions, not a lot now, maybe some more when it gets upgraded, but it won't budge any decent curer unless it's 10 affs in 3 seconds...which would be deemed overpowered again.

The simplest fixes to make for now seems to me, enchance dark moon and stagcurse, and put a timed instakill in each moon and stag. But you'll need something special that's pretty useless to moondancers, and very useful for serenguard.

Anyone can tell Stag and Moon have abilities that don't cooperate. But what about that most of them have no idea how to use their abilities? Stop changing your words to make yourself sound right. You really need to stick to your points instead of keep changing them.

They just both are facts, ask any of the top fighters about the serenguard. The combination of unexperienced players and crappy skills, makes crappy warriors. Ur'Guard has mostly non-veteran players as well, except for a couple, but they got powerful skills to make up for it.

IMHO, the Serenguard as well as the rest of the guilds in the Serenwilde resemble more Native Americans than Vikings with the worship of the Great Nature Spirits and all. I think Stag has useful skills for the Sernguard though, and I think the only upgrade really needed is Ancestral Curse. It would rock hard core if it gave Anorexia, Sensitiviy, Shackles, Epilepsy, Impatience, and Paralysis everytime. Mmmmmm.

The totem (as in tall tree-like thing, and not the spirits) abilities could use either major changes or just replace them with other abilities completely.

1. You can bond to a totem, which makes it actively defend against enemies. Nice, but still not much of a boon to the Stag user himself, since we're not allowed to summon people into this totem unless they voluntarily enter the Serenwilde to raid, and that almost never happens.

2. You can travel to your totem, but you don't get to decide where your totem is placed like a hermit tarot and most totems are pretty close to the nexus anyway. Plus, it's slow and uses power. Um, what's the advantage to this again?

3. Your totem will heal afflictions periodically. Downside, you have to be standing in the room with it! I don't know about everyone else, but I rarely get to fight my enemies in my own territory at my own room with my own totem. It's like a one-room, immobile demesne with only one effect.

I hope everyone can see that these three abilities are three of the less useful ones in Lusternia and come up with some suggestions for how they might be improved or replaced.