Um, I'm guessing you have never been a Serenguard then. The stag's abilities do not work well at all with Knighthood and Athletics. The facepaints are nice, but you can only get two at a time. The 3 totem abilities are useless as Zarquan mentioned, but Totem heal is third from Trans. Staghide offers a little cold resistance, but there is one ability that hits with cold, hailstorm so it isn't that useful. Bellow is useless since we can headslam or shieldstun. Stagstomp is a joke since we cannot get anyone onto the ground besides knockdown, and even then it takes 2 seconds to concentrate out whereas you wasted 4 seconds and 3 powers (5 if not in Stagform). Medicinebag is useless since that requires at least one free arm (hard when we're hacking away most of the times) and it barely heals anymore than a sip, if you had Waxing or Puella you could heal much much more. Headbutt is useful, but it's not like we don't have Barging, Tackle, and Charging to get someone out of the room. Pacing and Bolting have its uses, but most of the time no one use them. And Gore is made even weaker now since you can't swing while impaling someone, so yeah..Serenguard is screwed, Serenguard with Stag is even worse.

the totem abilities are useless for hartstone too. You can web someone to use stagstomp.. I still think all you need is upgrade ancestral curse and all will be fine.

If abilities are "useless" for two guilds instead of one, it doesn't mean they're fine.

And oh, the 2 seconds to concentrate and 4 seconds/3 power to stomp means it's useless whether someone webs or not, since it's basically a two seconds eq loss. That's all. (Unless they have confusion. Which Serenguard can't give. Unless there's a venom for it, of which I'm not aware.)

How does upgrading one useless ability that takes 8 powers compensate for the 5 or 6 other useless abilities? It is not an option for us to use Stagcurse as a finishing move on an opponent unlike a Paladin that can judge or inquisition or an Ur'guard that can cruxify and sacrifice unless you're going to make it really spectacular. Otherwise it is an utter and useless ability, especially due to focus spirit.

I wasnt implying using it as a finishing move, but it being upgraded slows down your opponent which would be helpful. The skills arent useless if they are combined with other abilities.

He just described how they don't combine with other abilities.

I just think think he is trying to combine them with the wrong ones.

Explain how to do better, then?

Sacrifice is impossible to pull against anyone with basic triggers.

Stop citing it as an example of a useful skill, Terenas.

It really weakens your argument.

By that statement, then Inquisition is impossible to use if anyone runs right after Heretic is used then. But that isn't the case is it? My point still remains, Stag and Moon's abilities do not work well at all with Knighthood and Athletics, making Serenguard the worst out of all 3 knight guilds. Furthermore, at least Crucify has some uses, especially in team fighting, Stagcurse and Darkmoon are utterly the worst and crappiest of all high end abilities due to its power cost and being so easily cured. How can anyone argue with that?

She isn't argueing the uselessness of stagcurse and dark moon, she just tells you not to cite sacrifice as a viable skill, which I agree with.

Usefulness (not powerfulness) of the skillsets...

Necromancy's useful skills:

-putrefaction
-contagion
-ghost
-lichdom

Stag's useful skills:

-staghide
-greenman facepaint
-trueheart
-parade
-lightning facepaint
-swift facepaint
-bolting
-totemreturn
-medicinebag
-pacing
-gore
-stagform

Moon's useful skills:

-beam
-light
-lash
-aura
-waxing
-shine
-waning
-harvest
-full
-resurgem
-conclave
-moonburst
-drawdown

Get the picture yet? And before you complain, I know the exact effects of every of the skills mentioned above.

Sacraments is the most powerful secondary skillset of Lusternia, but stag and moon are no weaker than necromancy, at all.

.... Apparently, Thorgal, you KNOW but you do not UNDERSTAND the uses of said skills. If you're only counting those 4 (very useful, and you're missing crucify for team combat) skills as useful in necromancy, you sure as hell can't count half those moon and stag ones. You want Serenguard to unwield a sword to use medicinebag? You think the one cold attack, hailstorm, is awesome enough for staghide to count? You're counting LIGHT as a useful skill, when it takes three people to erect and acts as a passive laetitia (that, unlike laetitia, cannot be stacked)? And SHINE? What the heck is the use of SHINE? It takes 9 people using one power and basically (gasp) makes a mage have to reject any of said 9 people that have him enemied long before they ever get near his demesne. And you apparently don't know how conclave works, because calling your coven to you from the local area at teleport speed for 5 power is NOT useful. I don't think I need to go on. (And don't try to call Moonburst a skill to extend your list when one of the main arguments against it being better is that it's part of a bigger skill not one on its own.)

Thorgal, I can't believe you just posted all the skills available to Stag and Moon except Stagcurse and Darkmoon and call all those skills useful.

Totemreturn- 3 powers, stopped by a monolith, cannot do anything in the meantime. Consider the usefulness..wow..

Bolting- I'm not even going to go there, same with pacing since I've already talked about them ahead. Why didn't you put totembonding and totemheal in there too? Since your list of useful abilities are basically all the craptacular abilities we have.
Gore- Chance of impale at 50% health, and minimal damage, this does the same as headbutt. OMG! Overpowered! And you cannot even double swing while your antlers are impaled.

Light- Like Shiri stated, useless
Shine- 9 people to give them lust afflictions, which is utterly and completely crappy and useless because we cannot empress.
Conclave- Like Shiri said, doesn't work globally like the AB file says, so I don't even know how you can consider that ability useful.

You're right in that you know what these abilities are and the difference between powerfulness and usefulness, but you apparently cannot determine the difference between usefulness and uselessness.

It seems you're also missing cannibalize, drain, cruxify, hunger (whatever it's called) and Omen. I don't know whether you were being sarcastic or idiotic in stating that Stag/Moon is not weaker than Necromancy. But it is apparent you can't be objective at all when people are complaining about things you do not agree to and you cannot seem to see arguments are placed right in front of your face.

It's called feed, yeah.

EDIT: And I forgot. Waxing is WORSE than PUELLA.

Parade? Are you insane? I'll just sip a love potion, and I have the same damn effect, but PASSIVE.

Staghide is only used because there's no reason not to.

Medicinebag saves me 10 sips of a health vial, for 8 power. Worthless.

If you think TotemReturn is good, you need serious mental help.

And you didn't even list Headbutt, which is at least good in the sense that I'd have to spend lessons on riding to get the same effect otherwise.

I don't know, that 300 hp regain on balance seems pretty good.

Wasn't Thorgal a Serenwguard, Paladin and Ur'guard? I think he knows a bit about usefullness of skills.

Psh. He was advanced by someone, stayed awhile to write a few combat things, and then left suddenly. None of them included Stag or Moon either. Just looking at the Stag and Moon skillsets most people can tell how they don't work together at all. I'm still boggled about -all- of the updates being coven related in some form, aside from Lash, which is obviously Moondancer oriented.

SHIRI: Can i ask how many times you have been crucified effectively shiri? I know there are uses, I'm not denying that, but i am curious.

ummm TERENAS?
about gore, what can and cant you do when gored? But yes, it would be nice if the impaler could do more things...

i agree on Medicine bag shouldnt have the free hand requirement...

You know stag serenguards do hit somewhat the hardest though with just straight damage passively. Ixion would have 1 less strength than max but be faster with his hits which i think increases damage per second more than 1 strength (at night only).

tankiest... a moonie serenguard vs an ur'guard... i really dont know because thats like saying an achaean infernal is tankier than a runie. I've been both though and i would beg to differ. Physical damage the ur'guard has it best but other damage sources the serenguard has it better. Mix it up in team combat and and you really cant tell which one is tankier. (under the assumption that drawdown is all damage types with a smaller %; also if putre is a multiplier if said person has trans resilience putre only reduces 22.1% from base damage something a lot of calculations miss but im always too lazy to just put it up there.) Also I've lived without resilience and just putre which alone is subpar to resilience due to upkeep cost and being a def. I know I'm far from a great warrior type but if i can live with just putre against the major physical damage hitters and tank them quite well, i can imagine with just trans resilience anyone should do quiet well considering the damage range in the game. Also dont forget to factor in regeneration.

Forgot carrion... love carrion. Thats probably equal to pacing and bolting though.

hmmm... I can think of some uses for conclave... and shine... and light...

Cannibalize has in all these years, never been useful to me even a single time, drain steals 1% reserves for 6 seconds of equilibrium, crucify impales you for 2 seconds at an 8 second equilibrium recovery and 8 power, feed steals a tiny amount of nourishment for 9 seconds of equilibrium...and omen is instantly cured for 250 mana by focus spirit.

Also, I didn't say the abilities I listed were good, I said they're useful, as in being used. Most of necromancy never even gets used at all, ever...all the abilities I listed are being used. I seen them being used and I used them myself. Gore for example, does NOT do minimal damage, I seen it do 900 to an armoured dwarf, and it never misses, without having any requirements. Saying a hidden lust is a useless affliction is of course just ignorant.

As to objectiveness, your objectiveness about your own class seems to be limited to agreeing with everyone saying serenguard are underpowered. If I speak with most of the top fighters, their conclusion has two sides, 1) Most serenwilders cannot cure or heal at all, they have no clue how to even use their primary skill properly, and never even tried to find uses for their secondary skills... and 2) Their skills are completely subpar to sacraments for paladins, and a single skill for ur'guard: lichdom.