That's 'cause Tuek and Narsrim are GOOD. You're not going to start saying warriors are awesome offensively because Daevos/Ixion/Murphy beat people, are you now?

EDIT: I wish you would post the whole post first time, and not just edit in parts after the fact.

The thing is, if Tuek/Narsrim were, say, an Ur'Guard, or a Celestine, or whatever, they'd be even MORE nasty.

Waxing is a bonus to healing.

Sorry, what?

Edit: Meh, double cause I was ninja-ed.

Exactly, and if moondancers would actually BE underpowered, Narsrim and Tuek wouldn't be able to beat the best fighters, despite being good.

An aslaran blademaster for example, is unlike Tuek and Narsrim, NOT able to beat all the best fighters, so unlike moondancers, aslaran blademasters are underpowered.

Then I don't want to hear another word out of you on the subject of warriors being underpowered.

Murphy beat Tuek. There's the log somewhere in the combat logs. Tuek is one of the best fighters. THEREFORE, by your reasoning, warriors are not at all underpowered.

Warriors are indeed not underpowered, I doubt you're gonna be able to find any recent quote of me saying warriors are underpowered, aslaran blademasters are underpowered, viscanti bonecrushers are not.

I said warriors are not overpowered, I didn't say they're underpowered, though in various cases they really are underpowered.

Someone beat someone once.

Good basis for an argument.

Who wins on a consistent basis when Tuek and Murphy fight?

Tuek.

I'm friggin tired of hearing Tuek and Narsrim brought up as examples of Moondancers not needing help. They're awesome fighters, and Tuek is full of artifacts. The fact is, yes, Moondancers can drain mana very well. But that sets up TOADCURSE. Toadcurse SUCKS. When they icewall, move, or ignite the damn thing. If you're not walled in, or in water, when they toadcurse, you will not die. Other than that, their offense is very subpar.

The exact same argument is made for warriors. Everyone compares Murphy/Ixion/Daevos and says we are overpowered. The fact of the matter is there will always be people who buy many artis and spend alot of time to perfect themselves so they will be the better fighters, but those people you can't take into account. Take into acount the AVERAGE, then we will see the flaws.

That's not the only argument used against warriors, though. It's not only the best that're taken into account.

I don't have a problem with warriors, just with how elemental runes can annihilate people. I see your point, though with warriors the runes get the attention at least half the time.

There's also a LOT more warrior fighters than Moondancer fighters.

Tuek and Narsrim, yeah, everyone knows about, they rock.
Me and Laysus - a Furrikin and a Faeling, I've got three transes, two fableds and a mythical, and Laysus is 60% my might and doesn't even have crone.

So we haven't exactly got the best crew to show it off.

You're a furrikin and he's a faeling, not exactly the best moondancer races, where as all the best combatants, DID choose the best race for their class.

That's it, yeah. So it's not as though you can prove it from experience that way like you can because of the huge variety of warriors.
You just have to look at the Moondancer skills to see they're subpar.

If I look at the moondancer skillsets I see retardedly powerful defence, regeneration and healing... and mediocre offense, what's subpar about that combination?

Because it should really be a moderately powerful defence and a moderately powerful offence.

Whereas our defence is fairly good, our escaping is really good, and our offence is crud. It's subpar because while we have a good job resisting things, we have huge difficulties killing anyone.

You have a lot easier job killing anyone than speed knights...not that that's a very good reference.

If you want your offense to improve, sacrifice on the defence. Moondancers aren't achaean mages, you can't have both.

I've not seen any suggestions to upgrade Moondancers without making sure their defense is reasonable.

I know, I do say things like sprite needs downgrading (I NEVER need to fear mana drain deaths, not that those are easily to do anyway) and nymph needs downgrading (though I consider the recent things a bug.) Even so, a lot of our defence is vastly exaggerated. It's more our escaping abilities that are good. Spores, flow (really needs downgrading), leap, et al. :/

Agreed with all of that, your offense IS subpar to almost every class, it isn't that horrible, but still subpar, but your insane defence makes it impossible to agree with the statement that moondancers as a whole need upgrades.