Yes.

P.S.-Serenguard needs upgrading.

We have no ways of effectively killing someone, aside from whoring nightkiss.

I guess people didn't listen to Tuek when he mentioned Hexes and then Moondancers needing more offense. Don't you all still need to raise your avatars anyway? So that's a bulk of your attack power, considering they're all offensive fae.

Unless I'm wrong.

You have more offense than Moondancers. If you need upgrades, so do they.

Sylphas:

Go fight a bit.

Then you can come back and complain to your heart's content.

Maybe you should give Visaeris that advice? He made 2 threads complaining how Night sucks right after it came out and no one saw it in action.

Ah, don't you love ad hominem arguments? I do fight, Ceres. Why the hell do you think I'm a protector?

Judging from the Night ab files, and having been a Moondancer, I think I can safely say that those skills appear to be better in many ways than Moon, or the Moon fae.

How on earth can shadowdancers be better than moondancers? Their main attack can be stopped by holding breath and they don't even have an active mana drainer..no lash equivalent. Their only effective move is choke (retardation), and that can be used against them severely.

It's like some people told me once, and they were right: just knowing the ab files isn't enough to judge a class, you have to had them at least used on you.

1: Toadcurse blows, to start with. If your offense revolves around setting it up, that's a problem right there.

2: Secondly, you have a paralysis ent. That helps mana draining. I'm not gonna say it's as good as lash, but see point one.

3: You have retardation. Try clotting/chervilling in permanent aeon. Or keeping insomnia up, and holding your breath, and curing passive afflictions.

I know that I haven't seen them in combat yet, and I'm not saying they need downgrades or anything. I'm just comparing them to Moondancers. We'll see if that comparison holds up later.

Neither of your points give any indication that shadowdancers are powerful..if retardation is all they have, since toadcurse blows that bad, they have a serious problem.

Oh, and shadowdancers better turn out a lot more powerful offensive than moondancers, since their defence is considerably less than that of a moondancer (not that it's low, but still lower).

Not that I usually support Visaeris, but to be fair to him, that time was as part of a joke. He wasn't seriously saying they were underpowered, it was something we were talking about on the IRC channel at the time, Visaeris posted that for Hajamin's benefit.

Anyway, I'll admit I jumped the gun on saying how nasty Shadowdancer stuff is, when I look at it afterwards, but they're still more powerful than Moondancers, especially when they get those three Fae.

Oh, and I'm still not sure on this, but doesn't holding breath mean you can't do anything EITHER? In which case you can hardly say that counts, because if you're doing that in aeon, you're just being hit by a stream of Fae and not able to do anything about it.

EDIT: Mother isn't great enough to say their defence is really much lower. Mother does very little.

Mother healed me about half a sip, every 10 seconds. You're not missing much.

That logic is faulty if you go take a look at kai choke in Achaea, monks there kill on a consistent basis with it, even though holdbring breath stops it.

I find choke highly rediculous, there was a reason retardation was changed to destroy all other vibes in the other IRE games. Because it was impossible to fight full vibes + retardation for more than a few minutes. How is a Shadowmancer using retardation at a disadvantage when he has 10 or so faes beating on you at the same time? This would be particularly worse for warriors who has to use two separate commands to attack, which will mean our offense will be halved (reminds anyone of monk fighting in retardation?).

So far, I've used choke twice in a fight with all my fae hitting the opponent.

Both times I died.

Who were you fighting?

Why don't you post a log of them then? Your losses could had been attributed to your unadaptibility to your new skills yet, not just Shadowdancers are underpowered.

Yes, they do.

They suck at killing people. All they can do is whore moonburst or toadcurse, which is a very unreliable insta-kill (though admittedly they have many ways of draining mana).

But they make up for it in good defense. Night's a good skill, but the ways in which one can kill people are limited to damage, or Toadcurse: and we have far less ways of draining mana than Moondancers (i.e., no lash).

Ok then, we're agreed. I'm going to stop arguing now.

Although I do think choke has the potential to be very, very bad, I'll hold back any judgements until I see it in action.

Those were jokes from the IRC chat. Hajamin made the skillset, and was in love with it. So Vis made "It sucks" threads so we all could laugh.

Have you ever even fought a shadowdancer?

Thought so. Do what Sylphas suggested in his previous post of this thread.