This would be because combat stances do nothing noticable, if they work at all, but that's another discussion and I believe Murphy and the Ur'Guard included it in great detail in their envoy.

Yes we are tankier with higher health, but Guardians and Mages both take things out faster and in some strange way, can take more stuff than us (unless we have surge) without needing to run. The only thing we have going for us is that once we get surge, we can tank more things than them without needing to run.

Whats worse, is unless we get energylink at like myth discipline, we have to start wasting power on a regular basis if we even want to think about bashing regularly.

I have a feeling that that's by virtue of your race rather than your class, Asarnil.

Also, there are plenty of ways to waste power. Like, numbness, numen, trueheal, etc. etc.

got news for you shiri doesn't work like that.

staffs do the most mob damage, period

How's that? I'm curious. Do mobs have a vulnerability to heat damage or something?

No, its just the base damage for them is higher than any other type of weapon, and then you add the extra 7-9 points of intelligence your average mage has over the average of 12 and you get more mob damage.

Their damage formula for NPCs is a bit higher than elemental blast and cosmic blast. But this is about knighthood, not guardians or mages.

Staffs are faster and do by far the most damage in the shortest time to mobiles, especially after they upgraded staff damage to mobiles a few weeks ago.

Roark, I have on question about this entire thing. Let's say the total damage a knight does is some random variable C, which is a combination of A and B, health damage and wounding damage. As C is currently, a knight without runes slashing at a specified body part to get wounds damage and afflictions and health damage, isn't too hard to control with sipping health and applying it, and using sparkleberry. What will this do to that variable C? It changes how A and B are configured, but will it make C more effective? If I go straight wounds, will someone still be able to just drink health and eat sparkleberry every few rounds while applying the health to body parts and completely stop any chance I have of landing important afflictions?

I just want to know what this would do to the total damage a knight does, and if specialized...would it help our damage dealing ability? To me, being extremely focused on either wounds or health damage, would just make it easier for your opponent to heal one dimensionaly.

Well, I read through your proposal again, and I have to say that I really like the general idea. But I was slightly confused by a bit of it since it seemed that you contradicted yourself. At first you stated that damage would only affect hp damage, while to-hit would be the determining factor for how much damage you dish out to your opponent's body parts. Then you stated that damage would affect both HP damage and wound damage, while to-hit would effect your chances of afflicting with wounds. I prefer the second approach.

Also I like the thought of making combat styles more useful, because right now, most of them are extremely limited in use. The only style that really has a noticeable effect right now is defensive when combined with high skill in combat. I would even go as far too say its too strong right now.

First off, I don't have a war blessing, so it's just 19 intelligence I do with moonburst. And I've killed plenty of people with weapons, namely those that don't die from Moonburst.

Secondly, knight bashing is extremely horrid, even at Trans Knighthood. Even with my 201 to hit rapier, I still sometimes miss twice in a row on an Astral mob. It is even worse for a newbie bashing Newton or the Desert, hence why I suggested Weapon Mastery in Knighthood to improve the damage, to-hit, and speed potentials for all normal weapons against mobs and hope that will be implemented.

Thirdly, as many people have stated, there are many random aspects associated with Knights, which though I enjoy, do get very frustrating at times. Random poisons going off, random limb even with targetted swings, random limb affliction, random chance of partial/full parry, and random HP damage. I would love if I had a greater control over my damage or wound potential, a sort of fighting mode in a sense where I can choose to do double the wound damage and higher chance of certain wound afflictions. But of course at a heavy trade off such as significantly less damage and bleeding. And the opposite that is more viable to damage knights is damage and bleeding boost.

Fourthly, one of the most frustrating things about knight at the moment is the incredible inaccuracy of swing moves such as hack and smite. I counted that twice as much afflictions for Bonecrushers are swing given, while twice as much afflictions for Blademasters are strikes given. The major problem with this is that most swing-given wound afflictions are much dealier than strikes, namely- disembowel, behead, bashbrain, burtorgans, fractured skull, knockdown, wind, and scalped. The few exceptions are of course impale and collapsedlungs but those have their own problems as well. Which sums up pretty much that Bonecrushers can afflict significantly better than Blademasters (which Bonecrushers like) but they can't hit the desired limbs as much as Blademasters (which Blademasters like). This should be looked into as well.

The *only* thing that limb damage does is determine the odds of getting a wound. Thus doing more limb damage is mathematically identical to increasing your odds of getting more wounds. Thus the goal is what you want: to-hit increases odds of wounds. But the real implementation to reach that desired effect is to make to-hit tie into limb damage.

A train leave New York at 5 PM traveling southwest at 80 MPH, and another leave Chicago south at 65 MPH... I have no idea what you are saying!

Right now it seems fairly one dimensional in that combat style don't really do much, and that knights rely on damage quite heavily. The hope is to make it possible to rely on wounds instead of damage. As for how it impacts damage dealing, if you are a heavy wounder then you'd probably be doing less HP damage than today. Though there are no decided upon figures, I imagine that existing knight fighting technique would not be modified a whole lot. Rather the goal would be to open up alternative options to what exists today.

I just mean, are people going to be able to outheal us easily? And as things are, I can see this helping Bonecrusher considerably more than Blademaster... more wounds means someone could stack a ton of winds and pull off a good insta-kill or something. Blademaster needs more wounds that matter and need them to be less focused on lower, because of stances. All in all, I would love for wounds to matter more, but at the end of the day... is it a bit too random for my taste. I hope this makes it better, and I like where you're trying to head, Roark. Thanks.

They are overhauling the whole knight system by the loks of things, this includes curing, affliction types, damage and maybe even armour damage etc etc.

Thus, roark is trying to get some feedback on a particular issue, and i have no doubt each element will get address individually at the time.

So stay on topic! you filthy hijackers!

Getting back on topic, I think that there should be a few ways to fight as a knight. With this to hit bizzo and my Z axis of knight combat, it'll be better than typical IRE speed or damage, where you can have a combination of both, and even switch combinations mid battle with ocmbat stances, I fully intend to buy some wounding runes for my hammers so I can switch both. As far as amaru's ideal that you shouldn't be able to be overwhelmed by both....I tend to disagree a little.

Ideally if you fight a good knight, IE the average healer VS a top end knight who trains hard and has artifacts, then you should eventually be overwhelmed by both damage and wounds in the end, unless you can khinder his offence.

At the end of the day you shouldn't be able to just sit there like some dwarves do, and heal and not parry or stance or even rebound all that well, and survive. Against a top knight fighter you should have trouble with them, just like I have trouble with fighting amaru because he is a good guardian fighter. And thorgal too. Neither of them can sit there and tank me without hindering, and I wouldn't like to see that changed, but I would like to see that tanky ass dwarves can't sit there and do nothing and survive just by healing.

There should be a happy medium where you need to fight with skill and hinder good knights to beat them.

I'll come back to post more later when I'm of sound mind and not distracted by people whining at me to do stuff

But this should be changed. Why should their offence have to stop and slow you down just so they can not DIE in two comboes when you don't have to do the same?

As I said in another thread when the idea randomly came to me, I think the base to-hit should be raised so that when you are a MASTER in Knighthood you basically have the same chance to hit your target as when you are TRANS your specialization. However, I think the Damage should be lower as Master than at Trans.

the main reason I felt this was that too many people who are not able to Trans knighthood seem to have a TERRIBLE time hitting things. I was playing around as a joke and found that it was asctually more beneficial for a shadowlord faeling to use shortswords instead of longswords, just so they could actually hit thier opponent once in a while.

As long as with these new Formulas a Tae'dae is just as viable an option as a knight as any other race it will be good in my eyes because a Tae'dae can basically ONLY be a knight.


so yeah.. thats just one big

where did I say die on 2 combos?

WHERE? You call yourself a post spammer and yet you don't read things.

I implied that you should EVENTUALLY die to me if you dont hinder me good enough, or just dont use parry or stances properly.

Its like if I don't use mana healings and sparkleberry properly and sure their afflictions right, a guardian can mana drain me easy to kill me.

Well if you dont defend yourself well enough, nor hinder the best knights you should die. Unless you kill them first its how IRE works

EDIT: And shiri READ THE WHOLE THREAD BEFORE POSTINTG!!! The whole damage thing is getting changed...including elemental runes so you WILL be able to survive a few more combos than usual. So you just made an utter dick out of yourself becaue you DIDN'T BLOODY READ *fume* Ok enough insulting. Your homework is to read this thread in its entirety before posting

Knight bashing is way faster then what I do as a Mugwump with Moonburst.

Maybe staffs, but cosmicfire, nature curse, and moonburst are quite a bit behind Knights. I never really bash with Mages.

I'd also like to point out, that dwarves cannot just sit there and take your offense period. Ceres is a dwarf, and she could not handle the damage at all. When I am a dwarf, I must hinder in order to handle the damage. It is more because Narsrim has deepwounds in Healing (Healing being an entire skillset devoted too... well, healing!), which is an ego using version of puer, but heals far more wounds.