The ONLY very good fighter serenwilde has is a moondancer named Tuek...and he's got more artifacts than any of us, and the ONLY very good fighter Celest has is Amaru...who doesn't have a single artifact except maybe a collar, and kicks Tuek's ass occasionally. Magnagora just has more quality fighters than Serenwilde and Celest combined.

Also, my definition of a fighter is: someone that fights many real battles, so it's impossible including you or Terenas.

Murphy stated, "even better, Serenwilde, I think we should all go join and get them nerfed to all hell and back, Weaponaura would be very nice."

Making that statement implies that the people in Serenwilde do not know how to use their abilities. It implies that the top fighters in Magnagora are so much better than Serenwilde’s fighters (or Celest), that Magnagora’s top fighters with Serenwilde's skillsets would cause many of their skills to be nerfed.

Thorgal, I have fought in many more real battles than you. So I guess you can't include yourself either, can you?

Heh, you haven't, not in a long run .

It implies that we could probably find more effective ways to use some of their skills, especially in Hartstone.

They have been effective enough sometimes to make you guys come on to the boards and complain about it (Effective in the use of the heartstone demesne that is).

Yup, and can you name any one Hartstone who can truly fight, who can cure well, and who has a solid grasp of tactics. But as I said earlier, I can see more effective tactics from looking in from the outside, as well as from helping Arilyon with her offense.

if you wanna talk implications, then sure.

The point i was trying to make was, the abilities that serenwilde has, are not even close to being used to their full potential. I believe that if Daevos, me, alger, Kaervas, Silvanus, Thorgal, Eiru, and...well can't think at the moment, but there are more, but if we went to serenwilde and used their skills to the full advantage, then yes I believe some nerfs would be called for.

Simple point being, while sure, Tuek is good, Amaru is good, i'll even say Narsrim is good, but the point is that our depth in quality fighters would give any organisation an advantage, and yes geb the majority of serenwilde don't know how to use their abilities to the best advantage. I'd say thaemorn does ok, and narsrim and tuek, and that is IT.

So as far as your post goes, Yes I believe that the vast majority of serenwilde don't know how to use their skills to a full advantage, and Yes the top 6 magnagorian fighters are better than the top 6 fighters of any other organisation, if you look at 6 v 6 or even down to 3 v 3. Put say top 5 mags vs top 5 serenwilde or top 5 celest fighters, and I'd safely bet my money on the magnagorians. Even if we were fighting in THEIR demesne, I'd still back the magnagorians although at a lesser rate.

so i guess you're right about my implications, but its not just me talking crap, I'd gladly back up any point i've made further. I'm not trying to be arrogant here, but the results of previous conflcts show what I'm saying to be true.

Terenas is a good arena combatant but only bashes and spars so doesn't really count all that much, hence has been left out.

That problem is easily rectified with training, experience, or acquiring one of the systems floating around (for the basic healing part). Even with the dearth in supposed high caliber combatants in the Heartstone, they are still able with the coordination of the other guilds to cause you guys consternation.

You guys are a more dedicated bunch of players. Are you really better than the rest in combat, I really do not see it. Combat skills can be easily acquired anyhow, if the person desires the skills. You have the more important ingredient to success (dedication), just do not get it twisted into thinking that your combat abilities are far superior to anyone else’s.

I seem to remember when you and 5 or 6 other magnagoran fighters lost to 2 celest fighters in a team ffa. My point is that you can't assume anything.

ok let me rephrase, demesne without that rediculous moving things around bizzo. If it were out of demesne, we'd have dropped you and marsu in about 10 seconds each. and the magnagorains in there were me and one other, plus a few randoms who couldn't really fight all that well.

And combat ability comes from dedication and expience in fighting, so yeh i guess you have a point with dedication. But to have combat ability you also have to have dedication, even if its just to learn how to use and practise a lot. Goes hand in hand

It was Lazul and I in the fight. Also, you guys used poor tactics. You could have easily stun locked me while another person outside of the demesne summoned. Nope, no one tried that one really. You guys tried to summon before coming in, but never did you try to split your forces and hold me in place while summon went through. Yes, you guys should have won, but poor coordination and tactics caused you to lose.

You, Marcalo, Revan, Bricriu, and some few others I do not remember, were in the fight.

That's definitely true, but then, the same could be said for almost any group, even other guilds within Serenwilde. Hartstone has a knack for not attracting, and driving away, strategists. I've heard rumor that there's an internal philosophy of "we're scholars, not fighters" that might have something to do with that. Back when hopes looked bleak for warriors to get the changes we just got, I joked that if all the Serenguard quit and joined Hartstone and took over, we could kick some serious and show 'em how it's done.

Revan isn't a top magnagorian fighter and neither is bricriu or marcalo for that matter

You were there though. Why didn't you take command and coordinate their efforts? Since you were the top fighter there, you bear responsibility for your group's defeat.

So you are taking credit for her offense, eh?

For crying out people, I thought you would have learned by now.

Seems like most of that applies to you, Asarnil. You curse more than many people I have seen, when you are frustrated.

Besides Murphy, none of those are top fighters. Marc and Revan are decent, Bric does not seriously fight. I don't know if you're great, but I know you're not on the Clueless In Combat list, while Lazul is stuffed to the brim with credits and artifacts.

Thing is, Magnagora may not have the greatest fighters, but the dedication, as you put it, counts for a lot. We're seen as a martial city, fighters are revered, so most of us do make an effort to learn at least a little bit. I know I'm nowhere near good, but I don't think I'm totally clueless either. I'd rather be on a side with 2 good fighters and 3 average fighters who at least have an idea what they're doing, than the side with 1 great fighter and 10 non-combatants.

For some reason, as far as I have seen, Celest and Seren defense usually consists of 1-3 good fighters, and a big bunch of more or less non-combatants. Then, if we win, we're overpowered.