*nod Branwn*

As a Vermonter, I've heard these topics discussed quite a lot. You wouldn't believe some of the "end of the world is nigh" stuff that came with civil unions; it was easily the biggest political issue of the last few decades. They went in, everyone held their breath, and... the world didn't end. A few years later virtually everyone is saying "what the heck were we making all that fuss about?", even the people who were so incensed at the time they were putting up signs.

I got to have a civil union happen in my house during that first month they were available... kind of spontaneously. "Oh, you can perform weddings? We've been meaning to get around to doing our civil union, we have all the paperwork..." I was cooking during it.

I've long advocated the idea of separating legal things from the religious things, as Shoshana said right at the beginning and many others have since. That's really the same as what you're suggesting, Roark: it's just lumping it all into one easy-to-apply-for thing, called "civil unions", so you don't have to pay an attorney to guide you through it.

And while people are talking about what those rights are, they're all underestimating it greatly. While Vermont's legislature was preparing the civil unions law, first in the country, they researched it. They had to make sure, by court order, they replicated every one of them that was within the state's power to replicate. They found 1,049 separate benefits and responsibilities linked to marriage, not counting those linked to state statutes in other states. Not ten, not a couple of dozen, but over a thousand separate things. Using powers of attorney to replicate that would cost a fortune.

Frankly, my only concern with civil unions is that the way they're being used now is just a repeat of "separate but equal" discrimination. (They're not quite equal, actually, but at least they try to be.) They're a big step, but they're not the last step.

http://marriageequality.org/

That is the most disgusting insulting thing I have ever heard in my life.

I can not believe that ANYONE would ever be able to compare christianity to Judaism.

I'm not even goin to bother talking to people who believe such hate and ignorance.

This is the first time in history, ever, that Jews and Christians have been even remotely close to having similiar oppinions on an issue. EVER.

First of all, don't confuse me with my charachter, and stop attacking me as a person. Its getting old and tiring.


I find it ridiculous to base a system of laws on a study that must be conducted every year to see the current population growth rate of a country.

Its also not very slim for an adminigly gay woman or man to produce a child, it happens far more often than you might think. Especially in modern society. Again the issue is not the creation of children, but rather the possiblity of one, and the raising of new children in our society. Adoption is an entire other ballgame, and making laws on individual case studies is so prone I would not have thought it was worth mentioning.

Again, I would suggest doing some research and discovering what the original intent for governments to be involved in marriage was for. Your obviously going to find lots of spin from people in the modern era so I would suggest looking at papers on the topic from before the early 90s.


Also, I'm not so much against civil unions, however I question the motives of the people asking for these civil unions, mainly because when you start to dig deeper, you see that they want to exclude many situations from being able to fall under that civil union.

First off. There's no hate. I don't care what you wish to worship...if it fills the hole in your soul that needs faith, then by all means worship.


Second, it's not ignorance. Simple question. And do not answer with a rant/butbutbut...simple yes or no. Does not Judaism worship Jehova/yaweh/whatever you want to call his name as, the same god that is the center of Christianity?

You've got to be kidding me, right? You come into this thread spouting off bigotry shrouded under laws and whinge when someone puts Christianity and Judaism in the same boat? -That- is hate and ignorance, yet what I experience isn't?

I don't think Daganev is a bioget (I have no idea how to spell it). I understand that you believe that marriages are purely economical things. I just don't understand why you don't think that same sex couples should be able to be married. And if you say because it goes against your religion, by george, (no idea how to spell that either) I need you to give me a better explanation for as to why same-sex couples should not be married.

I don't think he is a bigot either, but he is doing a lot to make himself sound like one.

You just destroyed any hope there might have been that I would EVER listen to ANYTHING you have to say.

I can not believe that ANYONE could be able to so vehemently argue against gay marriage, yet instantly get so offended when someone says the wrong thing to them.

Argh. I'm going to stop now, before Shiri has to censor about 3 paragraphs and ban me from posting again.

"Marriage is betwen a woman and man. This is God's plan." (Guess the name of this poet )

Well, . I don't recall following the standards set by YOUR God and in my religion, which isn't yours, all forms of marriage are accepted.

I remember the conflict about how religion should be kept out of public schools. This idea passed and public schools are now no longer allowed to teach religion of any sort to influence the children. Funny how religion still plays a part in the government and largely rules the ideals of what constitutes a family.

A loves B and B loves A. Great. Let's show our love to our family and friends and begin a family.

A and B run to the court.

Court: "I'm sorry. You can't begin your family. But we'd be happy to give you this lovely hand-made certificate that says you love each other!"

A: "Wait. Darn. One thing stops us. We're not allowed to do this because we're just not following the rules of the government."

*snap*

B: "I knew there was a catch when it was said that a marriage is between a woman and a man."

C: "Solution! Quick! One of you go through the few years of therapy and then have a sex change."

A and B: "What a great idea! Oh thank you C for forcing us into becoming something we're not so that we can adjust to laws made only for those other A's and B's! You're a genius!"

Audience applauses.

THE END

I just love happy endings!

In the answer to your question.. No Jews do not worship the same god that christians worship. If your a bit confused on the issue, you can read the whole Creation vs Evolution thread, which gets pretty detailed about the differences.

Saying Jews and Christians are the same, especially the historical context you put it in, is like saying the KKK and Martin Luther King Jr. are the same.

From my understanding, the institution of marriage is an economic insentive to help children and families grow and become viable economic entities in a mainly Urban culture. When two men can have a baby with eachother and create historical family legasies that bridge the past and present cultures together, then I'm sure I'll have to rethink my stance.


Here is a Gay person's perspective on the issue.

http://www.godspy.com/reviews/Gay-Conserva...Steve-Yuhas.cfm

You can Look up Steve Yuhas on google, this was just the first link I found, as he spoke at my school recently. He's very public on his opinions as a gay conservative.

Except... it is the same God, we were just told in the New Testament that He changed His mind due to Christ's sacrifice, so He became more kind and caring.

Anyhow, going to respond to Gwyl's post at all? I'm curious, since I went through exactly the same thing. Though there are still a few signs up with "Take Back Vermont" that people never got around to removing, it's pretty much a non-issue around here now. No one campaigns to get rid of it (that I've heard of, at least).

Edit: Oh! And Bring Vermont Forward!

I'm not quite sure how god A who creates a heaven and hell, and has angels rebel against him, can be the same as god B who is the source of all good and evil, has 100% obediant angels and has no concept of hell.

EDIT: Its kind of like saying Zeus and Jupiter are the same god.


As for Gwyl's post I did, respond. I said that I'm all for civil unions as long as they allow multiple partners and have no limitations on who can become a partner with who. Roomates, Fratboys/seroritygirls, Brother/Sister who are orphans or have invalid parents they need to take care of, anything.

"EDIT: Its kind of like saying Zeus and Jupiter are the same god."

Um, they are the same. The Greeks had Zeus, when the Romans came in they took the Greek pantheon and renamed them. Hence, Jupiter.

Not to go off on a hijack here but while the Romans took the basic stories of the gods from greece, they changes the names of the gods and the various lessons that would be derived from them to make them more roman and less greek. The opposite happened with Christianity and Judaism, they kept the basic names but the 'definition' of that god changed. There is a reason that there is a Jewish law says that a Jew is not allowed to enter a christian church of any kind.

Again, you can read through the numerous pages of the Creation Vs Evolution thread and see just a hint of the myriad of differences.

I hope you didn't intend some of the implications I saw in that.


They can. Maybe one day, it will be biologically possible too - who knows?

If by implications you mean the hunting and slaughtering of Jews, calling Jews christ killers and in general demonizing Jewish people then yes I did.

When that becomes pausible then debate it, untill then don't.

should we start making Aviation laws for when pigs can fly?

I'm not getting into a religious debate, I found that a terrible waste of the evolution thread.

But I meant what you said can happen now. Just not biologically.

You obviously missed the part where he said it IS possible, if not biologically.

If its not happening biologically, then its a redistribution of children, not the creation of new ones.

*edit: Unless there is some Ex nihilo creation of human beings that exist that I don't know about.

Whethere a gay couple is married under the law of the state or not, does not affect how those children are redistrubeted among the populace.

However, it is currently a HUGE finacial burden for hetero couples to create children save for the benefits they have as a married couple, and many people allready ask themselves as to why they should have children for themselves, and if they do why have more than 1 or 2?


*edit 2: As for people who are infertile. Thats a Major invasion of privacy, and I'm not sure how such a thing can exist in a non dictatorship society.