You'ld think the changes would HELP races that were NATURALLY inclined to be warriors, not hinder them. You'ld think the changes would be tailored to races like igasho and tae'dae, because they SHOULD be the most powerful knights, period. They should be able to tear off a limb in a couple of swings with a flail, not a faeling.

I think having both dex and strength modify things would be the best idea.

Yes, deepwounds can go below 0. This has been bugging me ever since I went on the test server. After no more than 20 slashes from Malicia and Rakor, to the gut, I was down to 0 gut, but it took me around 10 health applications before my gut was healed up to 17 wounding. I'm not sure if this was an intended effect of wounding, but it incredibly annoying that you could potentially go into the -200, to -300 woundings, which I was at since each health application cures around 20 to 24 limb wounding.

I actually think that both Dex and Strength should determine wounding but it should use whichever number is higher for your particular race. But dexterity should have a lower effect than strength since all the high strength races either have a balance penalty, or no balance advantage.

An Igasho would use his high strength for wounding (perhaps to inflict more limb damage) whereas a Faeling would use his high dexterity to increase wounding (hitting limbs more accurately). This way an Igasho can still reach 20+ strength and do more limb damage than a Shadowlord, but a Shadowlord can still use his 17 dexterity to inflict a good bit of wounding as well, but definitely should not be equal to the Igasho over time because an Igasho does have higher strength, though admittedly a speed penalty.

One of the main problems with Shadowlords is their level 3 speed balance, I believe by reducing it to a level 2 speed balance for Shadowlords, but keeping it a level 3 for Shadowcaster and normal Faelings, you could balance the damage/wounding over time compared to slow but high strength races.

So... make wounding damage which is good for killing players based off strength and dexterity but more effected by strength, and not do crap to help faelings with base damage and bashing, because after all, everything should be able to kill a faeling. There's something called BALANCE. You hit harder, we hit faster. Damage outputs should be somewhat similar, what varies, is how you kill them. Admittedly, I wouldn't have always said this, but when you have a class that specializes when it becomes a warrior, should have as much combat effectiveness as any other. You're just implying the game should be totally thrown out of balance in favor of strength, that would be stupid, especially after the strength of faelings was reduced.

Faeling str was reduced because they were owning everyone.

I still say you can't give Faelings boosted str or con without giving them a penalty for it. Low str and con were there penalties for +1 sip, lvl 3 balance, 2 levels of forest regen, and flying. Taking those away and leaving the other bonuses is insane.

I could care less about Faeling strength, my Serenguard is a Merian with 10 strength and I still manage to kill people with weapons. The fact of the matter is that a Shadowlord is able to do more damage/wounding over time than any other specialized races such as Brood Viscanti, Elfen/Merian Lords, all of which are geared towards higher strength. Sure, you have 3 less strength than a Merian/Elfen Lord, and 5 less than a Brood Viscanti, but you also have a level 3 balance bonus, which can mean you'll be able to hit almost twice in the same time they can. Factor in the fact that Shadowlords have higher Con than Elfen Lords (13 as opposed to 12), higher Dex than any of them, in addition to a sip bonus and of course, the level 3 balance bonus.

If an Elfen/Merian Lord hits me for 800 every 3.5 seconds, a Shadowlord Faeling can easily hit me for 600 in 2.5 seconds, or less. Within less than a minute into the fight, the Shadowlord is already doing more damage, on top of more wounding. Is that even fair to the other specialized races, not to mention the high strength non-specialized races such as Igasho and Taurian.

maybe if race stats meant less and weapon stats meant more... I was changing my stats around and the difference is quite noticeable for just 1-2 points.

The problem with strength being the deciding factor for wounds is that when you're getting hit 1.5-2k a combo you dont have time to apply health and thus have problems of curing the limbs. With speed knights i can just eat sparkle and apply health. Now against better healers though the wounding is still hard to do but i think the non-ritualists/healers need a deepwound curing skill like puer.

The hitting below 0 thats been there since beta.

Same here, racial stats should affect combat, but not to such a level as to cause such unbalance. But I'd like to see not just racial stats, but also racial bonuses be looked at. Take Mugwumps, they have a level 2 eq bonus, but suffers a level 3 fire/lightning penalty, Merians just as well, but a level 2 weakness, which is fair since they only a level 1 eq bonus. Aslaran has a nice level 2 balance bonus, which is balanced by a level 1 sip penalty. Furrikin, is well, average in all stats, the level 1 balance doesn't help much, but nice to have.

A Shadowlord's level 3 balance bonus is what I believe to be the major problem, and should really be looked into, or give them a penalty already, as it is, they are better than Elfen Lords, and even Merian Lords. And of course their sip advantage is better than a Brood Viscanti.

I'm all for a skill that heals woundings, a Discipline or Environment ability would be fine, but probably should heal less than Puer and Healing since it's a general ability.

The stat changes to faelings were in response to how the DEX changed modified the way the race worked. So if the DEX change is undone then the faeling change goes out with it. (In response to a post above that was judging reverting DEX but assuming faelings would stay as they currently are.)

Maybe you should make both DEX and STR impact it?

Roark, any official word on the wounds going below zero?

Can we expect a fix?

I think strength should effect wounding, not dex. Ithink Dex should have a defensive impact. BUT I think the effects of strength need to be minor compared to the effects of weapon stats. A medium/low strength warrior with good precision stat should do more wounding than a high strength warrior with a poor precision stat. Otherwise, it will turn out that high strength/no balance penalty warriors are still the best, since they will get the best damage and best wounding over time. If you want to force people to make strategic choices, you have to make the weapon stats mean more, and the stats mean a little less compared.

Another thing to think about... giving the str/con back to faelings, but giving them a 25% damage reduction when they hit with any kind of jab or swing (as a racial penalty) versus players. This would essentially give everyone a free halo versus Shadowlords, which is then lowered even more by their other defs... Shadowlords will still do decent damage to everyone who doesn't have numen/halo of their own (though likely not enough to kill), but will have to concentrate more on actually doing the wounding to get a kill, the damage is just to slow down their deepwounds healing somewhat. And that seems to be more what you were going for.

Not sure if that's at all possible.

I don't think it's fair to ask Shadowlords to have a 25% damage reduction in PvP, no other races has such penalties.

I think one thing that's been mentioned alot, but little insight has been given about needs a closer looking. Whatever happens, it seems faeling knights are going to have a hard time bashing. What can be done to fix that?

If the weapon stats are the lion's share of each equation, and faelings are not totally neutered in strength, they can just keep a set of flails with good damage stats. My concern about this is not 'what will faelings do' but 'how much better will knights be at bashing now that they can have damage/speed maxed weapons and bone to precision, since precision won't effect mobs and to-hit is independant?

What about them?

I have a Merian Serenguard and I bash just fine on Astral, getting between 10 to 20k every hour. If I have 14 strength (+2 with flex/geburah/bear totem), 11 constitution (with weathering) and no speed or sip bonus and can bash Astral, then why couldn't a Shadowlord?

And you'll only get better when you can forge a set of weapons for bashing that has the lowest possible precision stat, and high damage/speed.

I like Terenas' idea most..it's the most balancing and realistic, it should definately be considered.