-cough- I mean just leechs... not starsuckers.

well, a level 60 isn't supposed to be able to beat a level 35 "whatever they are" - that's where skills and fighting ability come in. For bashing, Furrikins would strike me as one of the most expectably disadvantaged basher types.

for the shadowcaster vs mugwump thing, you might also take into account that mugwumps get burned as hard as possible against both lightning and fire, while shadowcasters regenerate on friendly Glom turf, have the level three balance rather than 2 equilibrium, but get better writhing, can fly, and will get missed more.

Well as of this moment faelings dont get missed more.

Changes are needed.
Writhing and tumbling time for some races should definitely be looked into, some races are just insane in that way.

ELFEN LORD      
CON: 12 INT: 11 DEX: 14 STR: 14 SIZE: 13  TOTAL: 64 TOTAL-SIZE: 51

HP: 2900 SIP: 535 REGEN: 58
MP: 2705 SIP: 506 REGEN: 54
     
SURGE      
HP: 4253 SIP: 738 REGEN: 85
MP: 1353 SIP: 303 REGEN: 27

Advantages:  NONE    Disadvantages:  NONE
   
MERIAN LORD      
CON: 13 INT: 11 DEX:13 STR: 14 SIZE:14 TOTAL:65 TOTAL-SIZE: 51
13 11 13 14 14 65 51
HP: 3095 SIP: 564 REGEN: 155
MP: 2705 SIP: 506 REGEN: 135
     
SURGE      
HP: 4448 SIP: 767 REGEN: 222
MP: 1353 SIP: 303 REGEN: 68

Advantages:  LVL 1 EQ    Disadvantages:  LVL 2 FIRE, LVL 2 LIGHTNING
   
BROOD VISCANTI      
CON: 14 INT:9 DEX: 10 STR: 16 SIZE:15 TOTAL:64 TOTAL-SIZE: 49
HP: 3290 SIP: 415 REGEN: 280
MP: 2315 SIP: 313 REGEN: 197
     
SURGE      
HP: 4448 SIP: 537 REGEN: 378
MP: 1158 SIP: 192 REGEN: 98

Advantages:  POISON GAS ATTACK/IMMUNITY  Disadvantages:  NONE
   
SHADOWLORD FAELING      
CON: 13 INT: 10 DEX: 17 STR: 11 SIZE:6 TOTAL: 57 TOTAL-SIZE: 51
13 10 17 11 6 57 51
HP: 3095 SIP: 621 REGEN: 155
MP: 2510 SIP: 524 REGEN: 126
     
SURGE      
HP: 4350 SIP: 828 REGEN: 218
MP: 1255 SIP: 317 REGEN: 63

Advantages:  CAN FLY, LVL 3 FASTER BALANCE Disadvantages:  NONE
 


Well, this forum lacks any form of format control whatsoever, so anyways, here's some real numbers regarding specialized races instead of the fishy total stats and experience that people have been throwing out there. So depending on what knight changes come in, we can say that two of the races are somewhat balanced, with viscanti slightly edging out the other two, while Shadowlord Faelings are safely ahead of the pack. Should knights stay the way they are, you can toss out the dex stat and viscanti will be up ahead of faelings and with Elfen and Merian trailing behind. Please note that these numbers did not take into account trivial things like XP modifiers, swimming habits, and charisma, nor did they take into account defenses, which is what give viscanti the edge generally.

Are all of you going to bother listing all the pros and cons, or, just the ones you want to list? I'm sorry, but leaving some things out to make the results turn out in a certain light, intentional or not, certainly don't exactly get me rearing to go shouting for change. Forget being 'trivial' or 'not important' because all of them are, for once reason or another.

That could just be me, though, and I've felt excetionally loopy tonite.


:/

Something I'd just like to add.

There's plenty of races a warrior, even before upgrades, will be good at. Dracnari, for example. High int, high con, high str, easy to modify with low/high magic and athletics. Surge gives them great hp. Artifact runes with their 14 int means they're still doing insane damage. This means they're not only good in combat but they're also going to be good for bashing.

The high int races, however, all have low con. There aren't as many ways to raise int as there is to raise str/con. This means that guardians and mages who wish to hunt are either stuck with low int/high con, taking forever to kill anything, or high con/low int, quick to kill but not very tanky. I don't think this as great for bashing. People such as Amaru can live with lower int as guardians aren't specifically meant to kill with damage, but it doesn't help for bashing. Dracnari seems to the best balance for Celestines at the moment, from where I stand. Decent con to tank enough to know you need to run and decent int for bashing.

Things like herofete and karma does fix this somewhat, but have you seen the damage someone like Ixion can do? With his con? Its insane. A knowledge blessing helps warriors in both offence (surge -> more health) and defence (more willpower for clotting, etc). A warrior with artifact runes on their weapons will also benefit offensively from higher int, as their weapons now do part int damage.

If you're going to uphaul the races, please keep in mind what and how we're using them. I personally think that its currently a little unfair that mages and guardians get quite a shorter stick when it comes to bashing at higher levels over warriors who can use the benefits from both int and con. I weep when I see warriors surged to 6k+ health and able to use various str modifiers such as highmagic (whatever its called, I never use it as a guardian).

...more health is offensive now? (The rest of what you're saying is right, though, eh.)

sorry, got the int and health thing backwards. Yes, int helps warriors w/ surge defensively (more health) and offensively with artifact runes. I don't think there's anything specific I can learn that lets int do the same thing for me as a Guardian.

I left experience out because its just a time factor, and isn't too important in the grand scheme of things, just a nuissance. Charisma isn't incredibly important either, since its not used in any active combat and theres so many things you can have done to boost it (chants and equilibrium for example) and isn't used in active combat. So no, when you're looking at balancing races, some things aren't important in the grand scheme of things. And if you're going to argue stuff like swimming, bearhug and languages, you need to go take a nap.

Anyways, I'll attach some data I calculated on the races that you all can fish around with and come up with some conclusions because its 3am and I want to sleep off the 50 hours I worked in the past 4 days.

What is an XLS file and how do I open it? >_>

Excel spreadsheet, I believe.

Ohh. I hate not having MS office sometimes.

wow nice work

Artifact runes that change the damage type do just that, change the damage type. I haven't heard anything about that damage being readjusted for INT. I might be wrong, since I don't have them myself, but I don't ever remember hearing this.

They shouldn't, since they don't change the source.

Once more:
TYPE determines what kind of defences stop it.
SOURCE determines whether int or str modifies damage.

*skips the last 4 pages*

If you're thinking of overhauling all the races, here's an idea regarding race specialization: make the base race as decent as any other overall. Then change the specialization so that the specialized form of the race is more suited to the specialization. So that way we can have nonspecialized Faelings!!, elfen, viscanti, and merians that don't completely suck compared to every other race. Playing a faeling since before Glomdoring came in (down with the poser faelings! shadowcasters are sissies!), I am very much in favor of having the original race be balanced versus other races.

And yes, overhauling the races are a good idea. Just make sure to give everyone a free reincarnation. (Better yet, give us 100 credits that we -could- use to buy a dagger of reincarnation if we wanted to )

Woot Please???

Specialized races should ALWAYS be ten times better than their non specialized counter parts. You want to try and keep each race within their resepctive cities/communes as much as possible and if you make unspecialized remotely better you will lose that. Thats why I think Dracnari should be hella nerfed until Gaudiguch comes out. Also races with higher con should have experience penalties(Meh cant spell tonight)if there are going to be experience penalties.

I disagree, especially in the case of elfen/faelings. Both are equally suited to life in nature communes. Heck, there were lots of faelings in Serenwilde (sort of) before Glomdoring, and now unspecialized faelings are becoming quite rare, as far as I can see. Faeling is not an effective race choice for a Seren, and elfen is not an effective race choice for a Glommie. Just because the other commune has a specialization doesn't mean that the race should all but vanish in the non-specialized commune.

Forgive me if this doesn't make sense, I should be sleeping now.

I'm sure I've heard that the int damage for artifact runes was calculated off the int of the user. Can someone, or Someone, please comment?