This is why i say Laetitia is not the problem with debating. A person can have 10 chanters on him and it will not matter because the formulas for debating are a bit whacked. Now considering the first log below Jadryga had to win against me 10 times before burning me out. This is with me with no added regen, no laetitia, just sipping bromide and eating sparkles. If i had a beauty regen and was chanting on myself i can easyly double that required amount of chants. No added chanters needed, just me a bromide potion and my sparkleberry collection. Now consider here comes mr "I can debate your ass" who has 10 chanters with him. By looking at the second log you'll find out that if he looses against me 5 times next time he tries he'll be hitting himself for at least 3980 ego. So heres whats going to happen, he comes in by then ill have beauty for ego regen, my trusty bromide vial and a group of sparkles. He starts debating me and we will commence with the game of rock, paper, scissors. But instead of me debating him back what im going to do is i'm going to tell him how retarded he is with says, talk to my friends over tells and just keep switchin my mindsets around, because even though he has 10 chanters, on his 6th loss hes dead, and me if i lose more than 6 times ill just start chanting on myself or hey leave the room.

;>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<
;> This is a sample log of someone winning over me with debating. With no laetitia,
;> a sip penalty no added regens, just sipping bromide and eating sparkles it will
;> take approximately 10 successful debates to knock me out against normal
;> equilibrium balance. Jads charisma 12, my charisma 14.
;>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<

Jadryga argues with sweeping authority, buttressing her broad claims with
dogmatic assumptions and justifications. The argument is so preposterous and so
full of holes that you don't know where to begin to dissect it, and before you
realize it your silence has been taken for concession.
!!!DEBATED!!! LOSE! - PONTIFICATION - mindset ANALYTICAL(m2) to beat
3980h, 3980m, 2518e, 10p elrxk

MOSS: You feel your health, mana and ego replenished.
3980h, 3980m, 2916e, 10p elrxk
Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
3980h, 3980m, 3592e, 10p elrxk BROMIDE SIP
You may drink another health, mana, or bromide potion.
3980h, 3980m, 3592e, 10p elrxk
You may eat another sparkleberry.
3980h, 3980m, 3592e, 10p elrxk

Jadryga argues with sweeping authority, buttressing her broad claims with
dogmatic assumptions and justifications. The argument is so preposterous and so
full of holes that you don't know where to begin to dissect it, and before you
realize it your silence has been taken for concession.
!!!DEBATED!!! LOSE! - PONTIFICATION - mindset ANALYTICAL(m2) to beat
3980h, 3980m, 2661e, 10p elrxk

MOSS: You feel your health, mana and ego replenished.
3980h, 3980m, 3059e, 10p elrxk
Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
3980h, 3980m, 3667e, 10p elrxk BROMIDE SIP
You may drink another health, mana, or bromide potion.
3980h, 3980m, 3667e, 10p elrxk

Jadryga argues with sweeping authority, buttressing her broad claims with
dogmatic assumptions and justifications. The argument is so preposterous and so
full of holes that you don't know where to begin to dissect it, and before you
realize it your silence has been taken for concession.
!!!DEBATED!!! LOSE! - PONTIFICATION - mindset ANALYTICAL(m2) to beat
3980h, 3980m, 2628e, 10p elrxk

You may eat another sparkleberry.
3980h, 3980m, 2628e, 10p elrxk
Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
3980h, 3980m, 3342e, 10p elrxk BROMIDE SIP
MOSS: You feel your health, mana and ego replenished.
3980h, 3980m, 3740e, 10p elrxk
You may drink another health, mana, or bromide potion.
3980h, 3980m, 3740e, 10p elrxk

Jadryga argues with sweeping authority, buttressing her broad claims with
dogmatic assumptions and justifications. The argument is so preposterous and so
full of holes that you don't know where to begin to dissect it, and before you
realize it your silence has been taken for concession.
!!!DEBATED!!! LOSE! - PONTIFICATION - mindset ANALYTICAL(m2) to beat
3980h, 3980m, 2575e, 10p elrxk

You may eat another sparkleberry.
3980h, 3980m, 2575e, 10p elrxk
Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
3980h, 3980m, 3170e, 10p elrxk BROMIDE SIP
MOSS: You feel your health, mana and ego replenished.
3980h, 3980m, 3568e, 10p elrxk
You may drink another health, mana, or bromide potion.
3980h, 3980m, 3568e, 10p elrxk

Jadryga argues with sweeping authority, buttressing her broad claims with
dogmatic assumptions and justifications. The argument is so preposterous and so
full of holes that you don't know where to begin to dissect it, and before you
realize it your silence has been taken for concession.
!!!DEBATED!!! LOSE! - PONTIFICATION - mindset ANALYTICAL(m2) to beat
3980h, 3980m, 2240e, 10p elrxk

You may eat another sparkleberry.
3980h, 3980m, 2240e, 10p elrxk
Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
3980h, 3980m, 2810e, 10p elrxk BROMIDE SIP
MOSS: You feel your health, mana and ego replenished.
3980h, 3980m, 3208e, 10p elrxk
You may drink another health, mana, or bromide potion.
3980h, 3980m, 3208e, 10p elrxk

Jadryga argues with sweeping authority, buttressing her broad claims with
dogmatic assumptions and justifications. The argument is so preposterous and so
full of holes that you don't know where to begin to dissect it, and before you
realize it your silence has been taken for concession.
!!!DEBATED!!! LOSE! - PONTIFICATION - mindset ANALYTICAL(m2) to beat
3980h, 3980m, 1856e, 10p elrxk

Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
3980h, 3980m, 2445e, 10p elrxk BROMIDE SIP
You may eat another sparkleberry.
3980h, 3980m, 2445e, 10p elrxk
MOSS: You feel your health, mana and ego replenished.
3980h, 3980m, 2843e, 10p elrxk

You may eat another sparkleberry.
3980h, 3980m, 2843e, 10p elrxk
MOSS: You feel your health, mana and ego replenished.
3980h, 3980m, 3241e, 10p elrxk
You may drink another health, mana, or bromide potion.
3980h, 3980m, 3241e, 10p elrxk

Jadryga argues with sweeping authority, buttressing her broad claims with
dogmatic assumptions and justifications. The argument is so preposterous and so
full of holes that you don't know where to begin to dissect it, and before you
realize it your silence has been taken for concession.
!!!DEBATED!!! LOSE! - PONTIFICATION - mindset ANALYTICAL(m2) to beat
3980h, 3980m, 1709e, 10p elrxk

Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
3980h, 3980m, 2379e, 10p elrxk BROMIDE SIP
You may eat another sparkleberry.
3980h, 3980m, 2379e, 10p elrxk
You may drink another health, mana, or bromide potion.
3980h, 3980m, 2379e, 10p elrxk
MOSS: You feel your health, mana and ego replenished.
3980h, 3980m, 2777e, 10p elrxk
Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
3980h, 3980m, 3422e, 10p elrxk BROMIDE SIP

Jadryga argues with sweeping authority, buttressing her broad claims with
dogmatic assumptions and justifications. The argument is so preposterous and so
full of holes that you don't know where to begin to dissect it, and before you
realize it your silence has been taken for concession.
!!!DEBATED!!! LOSE! - PONTIFICATION - mindset ANALYTICAL(m2) to beat
3980h, 3980m, 1860e, 10p elrxk

You may drink another health, mana, or bromide potion.
3980h, 3980m, 1860e, 10p elrxk

Jadryga argues with sweeping authority, buttressing her broad claims with
dogmatic assumptions and justifications. The argument is so preposterous and so
full of holes that you don't know where to begin to dissect it, and before you
realize it your silence has been taken for concession.
!!!DEBATED!!! LOSE! - PONTIFICATION - mindset ANALYTICAL(m2) to beat
3980h, 3980m, 142e, 10p elrxk

Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
3980h, 3980m, 712e, 10p elrxk BROMIDE SIP
You may eat another sparkleberry.
3980h, 3980m, 712e, 10p elrxk
MOSS: You feel your health, mana and ego replenished.
3980h, 3980m, 1110e, 10p elrxk

-end

;>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<
;> This is a sample log of me losing debates. It will only take 6 loses before i knock
;> my entire ego pool out. Jads charisma 12, my charisma 14.
;>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<

You say, "Okay."
3980h, 4700m, 3980e, 10p elrxk

You passionately present your case, fervently arguing your points with
emotional appeals. After a dramatic pause, Jadryga exposes your argument as
nothing more than a baseless form of emotional blackmail.
!!!DEBATING!!! LOSE! enemy mindset: cautious - (d2) pontification to beat.
3980h, 4700m, 2716e, 10p lrxk

MOSS: You feel your health, mana and ego replenished.
3980h, 4700m, 3114e, 10p lrxk
Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
3980h, 4700m, 3535e, 10p lrxk BROMIDE SIP
You have recovered equilibrium.
3980h, 4700m, 3535e, 10p elrxk
You may drink another health, mana, or bromide potion.
3980h, 4700m, 3535e, 10p elrxk
You may eat another sparkleberry.
3980h, 4700m, 3535e, 10p elrxk

You passionately present your case, fervently arguing your points with
emotional appeals. After a dramatic pause, Jadryga exposes your argument as
nothing more than a baseless form of emotional blackmail.
!!!DEBATING!!! LOSE! enemy mindset: cautious - (d2) pontification to beat.
3980h, 4700m, 1645e, 10p lrxk

MOSS: You feel your health, mana and ego replenished.
3980h, 4700m, 2043e, 10p lrxk
Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
3980h, 4700m, 2381e, 10p lrxk BROMIDE SIP
You have recovered equilibrium.
3980h, 4700m, 2381e, 10p elrxk
You may drink another health, mana, or bromide potion.
3980h, 4700m, 2381e, 10p elrxk
Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
3980h, 4700m, 2878e, 10p elrxk BROMIDE SIP
You may eat another sparkleberry.
3980h, 4700m, 2878e, 10p elrxk
MOSS: You feel your health, mana and ego replenished.
3980h, 4700m, 3276e, 10p elrxk
3980h, 4700m, 3276e, 10p elrxk

You say, "Laetitia me please."
3980h, 4700m, 3276e, 10p elrxk

You may drink another health, mana, or bromide potion.
3980h, 4700m, 3276e, 10p elrxk
Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
3980h, 4700m, 3626e, 10p elrxk BROMIDE SIP
You may eat another sparkleberry.
3980h, 4700m, 3626e, 10p elrxk

A golden light travels down your spine as Jadryga chants under her breath, and
you then suddenly stands taller with greater confidence.
3980h, 4700m, 3980e, 10p elrxk
You may drink another health, mana, or bromide potion.
3980h, 4700m, 3980e, 10p elrxk

You passionately present your case, fervently arguing your points with
emotional appeals. After a dramatic pause, Jadryga exposes your argument as
nothing more than a baseless form of emotional blackmail.
!!!DEBATING!!! LOSE! enemy mindset: cautious - (d2) pontification to beat.
3980h, 4700m, 1512e, 10p lrxk

MOSS: You feel your health, mana and ego replenished.
3980h, 4700m, 1910e, 10p lrxk

A golden light travels down your spine as Jadryga chants under her breath, and
you then suddenly stands taller with greater confidence.
3980h, 4700m, 2488e, 10p lrxk
Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
3980h, 4700m, 2847e, 10p lrxk BROMIDE SIP
3980h, 4700m, 2847e, 10p lrxk
You have recovered equilibrium.
3980h, 4700m, 2847e, 10p elrxk
Chanting the , a golden warmth travels down your spine as
your back straightens and your self-confidence grows.
3980h, 4670m, 3550e, 10p lrxk
You may drink another health, mana, or bromide potion.
3980h, 4670m, 3550e, 10p lrxk
You may eat another sparkleberry.
3980h, 4670m, 3550e, 10p lrxk
You have recovered equilibrium.
3980h, 4670m, 3550e, 10p elrxk
Chanting the , a golden warmth travels down your spine as
your back straightens and your self-confidence grows.
3980h, 4640m, 3980e, 10p lrxk
You have recovered equilibrium.
3980h, 4640m, 3980e, 10p elrxk

You passionately present your case, fervently arguing your points with
emotional appeals. After a dramatic pause, Jadryga exposes your argument as
nothing more than a baseless form of emotional blackmail.
!!!DEBATING!!! LOSE! enemy mindset: cautious - (d2) pontification to beat.
3980h, 4700m, 970e, 10p lrxk

MOSS: You feel your health, mana and ego replenished.
3980h, 4700m, 1368e, 10p lrxk
Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
3980h, 4700m, 1818e, 10p lrxk BROMIDE SIP

A golden light travels down your spine as Jadryga chants under her breath, and
you then suddenly stands taller with greater confidence.
3980h, 4700m, 2563e, 10p lrxk
You have recovered equilibrium.
3980h, 4700m, 2563e, 10p elrxk

A golden light travels down your spine as Jadryga chants under her breath, and
you then suddenly stands taller with greater confidence.
3980h, 4700m, 3371e, 10p elrxk
You may drink another health, mana, or bromide potion.
3980h, 4700m, 3371e, 10p elrxk
You may eat another sparkleberry.
3980h, 4700m, 3371e, 10p elrxk

A golden light travels down your spine as Jadryga chants under her breath, and
you then suddenly stands taller with greater confidence.
3980h, 4700m, 3980e, 10p elrxk
Chanting the , a golden warmth travels down your spine as
your back straightens and your self-confidence grows.
3980h, 4670m, 3980e, 10p lrxk

A golden light travels down your spine as Jadryga chants under her breath, and
you then suddenly stands taller with greater confidence.
3980h, 4700m, 3980e, 10p lrxk
You have recovered equilibrium.
3980h, 4700m, 3980e, 10p elrxk

You passionately present your case, fervently arguing your points with
emotional appeals. After a dramatic pause, Jadryga exposes your argument as
nothing more than a baseless form of emotional blackmail.
!!!DEBATING!!! LOSE! enemy mindset: cautious - (d2) pontification to beat.
3980h, 4700m, 254e, 10p lrxk

MOSS: You feel your health, mana and ego replenished.
3980h, 4700m, 652e, 10p lrxk
Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
3980h, 4700m, 1028e, 10p lrxk BROMIDE SIP

A golden light travels down your spine as Jadryga chants under her breath, and
you then suddenly stands taller with greater confidence.
3980h, 4700m, 1752e, 10p lrxk
You have recovered equilibrium.
3980h, 4700m, 1752e, 10p elrxk

A golden light travels down your spine as Jadryga chants under her breath, and
you then suddenly stands taller with greater confidence.
3980h, 4700m, 2574e, 10p elrxk
Chanting the , a golden warmth travels down your spine as
your back straightens and your self-confidence grows.
3980h, 4670m, 3201e, 10p lrxk
You may eat another sparkleberry.
3980h, 4670m, 3201e, 10p lrxk
You may drink another health, mana, or bromide potion.
3980h, 4670m, 3201e, 10p lrxk
MOSS: You feel your health, mana and ego replenished.
3980h, 4700m, 3599e, 10p lrxk
Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
3980h, 4700m, 3962e, 10p lrxk

A golden light travels down your spine as Jadryga chants under her breath, and
you then suddenly stands taller with greater confidence.
3980h, 4700m, 3980e, 10p lrxk
You have recovered equilibrium.
3980h, 4700m, 3980e, 10p elrxk

You passionately present your case, fervently arguing your points with
emotional appeals. After a dramatic pause, Jadryga exposes your argument as
nothing more than a baseless form of emotional blackmail.
The stress of this debate is too much! You throw up your hands up in
exasperation and curse loudly, losing face in front of your peers.
After a long pause in you and your interlocutor's dialectic, you lose interest
in the debate and let your mind drift to other things.
!!!DEBATING!!! LOSE! enemy mindset: cautious - (d2) pontification to beat.
3980h, 4700m, 0e, 10p lrxk

-end

Well, Jadryga's "losing" in the first part was only the minor sort of loss, whereas your losing in the second part was her ripping your debating style to shreds. Plus, with one person repeatedly winning or losing, you'll build up a rather large ego total. The way I understand it is, as one person builds up an advantage, the amount of ego lost goes up sharply. I may have a misapprehension of it though.

So if you attack in such a way that your opponent thoroughly destroys your argument, and you do so repeatedly, you'll lose quickly.

wrong ralshan

Jadryga passionately presents her case, fervently arguing her points with
emotional appeals. As temperaments cool, you quietly but firmly expose the
argument as nothing more than a baseless form of emotional blackmail.
3740h, 4460m, 3980e, 10p elrxk

Jadryga unscrupulously quibbles about the smallest points in her argument,
bringing up esoteric minutiae to support her radical theories. You can only
blink in astonishment at her mindboggling logic.
3740h, 4460m, 3866e, 10p elrxk

Jadryga argues with sweeping authority, buttressing her broad claims with
dogmatic assumptions and justifications. The argument is so preposterous and so
full of holes that you don't know where to begin to dissect it, and before you
realize it your silence has been taken for concession.
3740h, 4460m, 3169e, 10p elrxk

In the last 10 influence runs, I've lost only 3 or so times out of countless debates, and all of which because I tried to go more aggressive on the debating. I'm not bragging about it because debatting really is a no brainer and this is why.

Agreed, Alger. Debating needs a lot of work.

Skill in influence and charisma should make an impact, for a start.

Skill in influence should matter, and the cost for losing should -really- be lowered. I really think Melanchthon had the best solution for this but I'm ungodly lagged because of torrents so I can't be bothered to try and find it just yet.

Really though, I've been teaching anyone who gets debated to just do

#alias {ms} {#case %random() {mindset analytical} {mindset pedantic} {mindset cautious}}

and I can honestly tell you that 80% of the time it works. Doesn't it seem as though there's something slightly wrong with that?