oh my bad, baalphegar then

No I'm not portraying it as the worse thing to happen. Geeze, pay attention, I'm saying they all suck but one doesn't justify the other.

I'm having trouble seeing how this relates to what Fain's order did though and how they justified it. Serenwilde were mean to Magnagora so Fain's order enemied people? Doesn't work for me. An order is not intrinsic to a city or commune whether the god is a patron or not.

Personally, I think, as a player, that this was pretty low and cheap, but then again so are a bunch of other things.

Here's my problem, and I wasn't here nor am I currently in Fain's order.

However...

Why in the world, when you are in a conflict, would you not use every weapon at your disposal? If they had a shrine there, and worldburned, then that was a smart tactic on their part. If you are in a battle/war/fight, you don't hold back anything in your arsenal or you are dead. If I'm in a fistfight, you can be damned sure I'm going to whip out every cheap tactic there is to win that fight. Just as any army would use all the weapons at our disposal to attack the other group, not holding back because they thought it was "unfair".

Fain desires power at any cost, and it seems perfectly acceptable and actually decent RP that he would use any means necessary to achieve it. It is quite different than him coming down and doing it himself as shrines can be destroyed, and if Celest/Serenwilde planned to take Stewarts...organizational planning should have taken into account that the shrine may have been needed to be removed. Anytime in other IRE realms that I see a shrine anywhere...I think of it as a potential weapon as that is exactly what it is.

True, but I've been saying that one doesn't justify the other.

Because it's a freaking worldburn and it's unfair? This still a game after all and as we know, balance comes before realism.

If it was an attack on Fain's order, fine, worldburn. But it's ridiculous to use it for Magnagoran purposes. You may aswell have Fain come down and start stepping on people.

Sure it does. When you get punched in the balls (for a man, obviously), you punch them back (if you can get the energy).

As a character, "The end is justified by the means" comes to mind.

Then they punch you back and you punch them back and they punch you back and you punch them back...an so on and so forth. See where that goes? No where. You just get sore balls.

Again, Fain coming down..you can't stop. Shrines can be defiled into nothing and no longer become an issue.

And I would fully expect the patron of said city to play an active role in that cities success, and therefore his order would be key to seeing that achieved as well. Much like any Greek God used his elite forces to influence and protect cities, much as his elite members would protect his interests here.

Simple planning to remove the shrine before the conflict started or right as it started would have ended this whole ordeal on the spot.

i just answered your question quidgyboo... you asked "so if you said its not as bad?" This whole discussion were having started because you go "this is a tad worse." and man, you should get by now that im not trying to justify anything, i've said that.

Btw orders(namely celestine orders) use worldburn to defend. No we dont attack the order nor its shrines, they're just used as a defensive tool. This is actually the reason i started defiling shrines back then. So apparently not everybody believes in this seperation of order and city youre saying.

Why didn't I think of that. This must be our fault!

Well they suck just as much as you guys .

I wasn't there earlier today, but worldburning a village that is up for influence sounds just ridiculous. For one, it's been stated before, Village influencing was not supposed to be a bloodbath. Some conflict sure, but still somewhat clean (hence debating and sanctuary and such).

As posted earlier, sure, if the shrines were there, maybe those in Fain's order would be more justified in using worldburn. But after.. 6-8 hours of influencing.. to start raising shrines (as i don't believe there was a shrine every 4-5 rooms to begin with to Fain) to do it.. order enemying everyone in sight for ... doing what they are intended to do as per the function of Village Influencing... to just kill them all. Yeah. Stupid.

Worldburning Celestia, sure.. not great. Thing is, Celestia is territory that is protected by one group, and targeted by another group. Village influencing, everyone's targeting, no one is protecting. You worldburn as a last ditch effort to defend not to get things your way. You worldburn Celestia when you have the 10 guys raiding, defiling shrines or nailing supernals, not when people are devoting 8 hours of their entire day to winning over a village. You don't defend a village open for influencing, you influence because the village is now belongs to no one. Between revolts, you defend, but not after a revolt but before it's declared it's loyalties.

Lisaera taking the monolith, then destroying it, crappy. I never agreed with that. Hajamin wasn't saying "these people are available," at least to my memory. I recall him saying things like "Get ready to check people" or even "You need to get more people" or "get the little guys" (not exact quotes, but good enough from my memory), not "Doran's open, quick go get him." I could be wrong, but I'm 90% sure that was how it went, as vague as it could have been short if him not saying anything. Hajamin sure has taken actions on behalf of Celest, but he hasn't gotten as directly involved in village influencing by limiting, in any fashion, or even killing influencers.

Regardless of what other Divine have done in the past, it by no means justifies such actions when they occur. I hope that such involvements as Divine coming in and smashing players, or order enemying people because it's going to be convenient rather than for reasons that make sense, ever really. Yes, though the Divine are Admins and need to take a step back compared to other players, yet compared to other IRE Games (from what i've heard) are still more involved than other IRE games, things like worldburning a village of non-mag influencers to death, is a little 'too' involved. I'm pretty sure I remember reading somewhere in the forums a Divine, perhaps it was even Estarra, mentioning that a Vernal (a player made Divine) would be restricted from killing players during influencing, unless perhaps such a player had actually insulted that Vernal.

Now, forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I don't believe the afore mentioned level 11 novice doing food runs was insulting the Elder God, Fain.

Is everyone still enemied to His order?

Edit: I'd be thinking about IC responses rather than complaints about the handling of it. Can't really be changed now. This basically shows Fain's shrines are offensive weapons He's willing to use at whim, so I wouldn't be surprised if Serenwilde and Celest started efforts to take down any they can. (Which probably would be none )

Defending against what, exactly? Are you in a sanctuaried room? No. Are you specifically using a skill so you don't have to sit there taking hoarde after hoarde of fighting combatty undead? No. I don't think we can defile in sanctuary, can we? Was the shrine there to start with?

Guess this is a good a time as any for the legendary 'first post'.

While I was wasn't here to see most of the past divine actions that happened in Lusternia, I was one of the Seren that was in Stewart. It was also my first experience influencing.

Firstly, I need to give props to both sides for bearing through all that, especialy since it apperently is NOT the norm. Overall it seemed that everyone kept determined to win until the end (though I guess I'm too used to other places where groups just give up after the first round).

With that out of the way...

I guess I can't realy see the arguments against Fain's deciding to use Worldburn in the fight. In an RP sense, Fain would be the type not to pull punches when he has an interest in something. Since he likes Mag and in a rather short time they lost one village and is facing a 2 on 1 in losing another one, SOMETHING had to be done, right?

So he stepped in. According to game rules he can't just run in and kill everyone in sight himself. However, his order CAN create shrines for him and then use worldburn at targets of your choice. True, it might've been thought of as a defensive act, but it never was ordered to be that way, so the offensive capabilities were there. True, Influencing is overall a nonhostile act, but it's not completely peaceful (especialy with the option of using Crusade and the limitations on Sanc).

So you can say it was "a good idea at the time".

The problem was that it worked TOO well. That (I think) is why it was stopped. It's sort of similar to starting a fight with someone using some method to speed up your attacks and suddenly finding a bug that lets you ignore Balance. It was less the fault of Fain or Mag for using a crazy tactic and more of just a need to tweak a skill for better gameplay. Now if every influence session turns into a worldburning festival we'll have some major issues. Just pat Mag on the back for being (a little too) crafty and/or Seren for pulling through and having allies that can do the same.

For the record, it's frightening as anything when you're a low leveled faeling going through your first village influence and suddenly seeing a good 5 people you were with combust and thinking a good half of your city is going with it. ICly, I NEVER want to see that again (mixed feelings OOCly, though I do believe the skill needs a tweak).

You have to admit, though, this is all ALOT better than if we were all arguing over bashing spots (That's MY cow!).


Now.. time to look for a good Avatar.

I must say I am terribly glad that these pointless discussions in which either side refuses to listen to what the other is saying are taking place here on the forums and not on the public board like in certain other IRE muds. That said, please keep your debates to a format that is worthy of intelligent people, and not the mule headed bickering that seems to be happening so much of late. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing, but at least be civil about it.

Thank you

EDIT: And no, this isn't about everyone in this thread, just a few individuals.

Lisaera removed the megalith for all of 2 or 3 minutes before replacing it. She did it because some uppity Mag made a negative comment towards her. No harm was done.

That's one thing that stands out in Lusternia over Achaea. Most (not all) of the Mags seem to have little to no respect for the Divine. Shouting insults, etc... It's as if they expect them to bow down to their whims. No humility whatsoever. If you know Valek and Brona, you'll know exactly what I mean.

I'm glad that some of you (Alger!) found it funny that Fain's order enemied everyone who was after an UNINFLUENCED village (you know, a village that no longer belongs to you) for the purpose of dealing out 2000hp of unblockable, unstoppable damage every few seconds all so that your people could get in, remove our demesnes and set up your own. What -I- find funny is how you're looking for anything to justify it, digging deep into the past to pull up reasons why the Serens and Celestians deserved such treatment. Hilarious.

I don't buy that crap about you getting enemied to Lisaera's order just for standing at your nexus. Right. You did something. If we're going to nitpick, let's discuss why I was enemied to Magnagora. For influencing in a village you were after. Let's discuss why I was enemied to Fain's order. For wanting Stewartsville.

Actually, at least during my time in Mag, Divine were respected. Fain and Raezon get a lot more respect from the Magnagorans than Hajamin and Lacostian from Celestians.. unfortunately.

Just remember why Lord Lac isn't city patron anymore, something like that would have -never- happened in Mag.

/hijack

Brona?