Actually, there was a shrine defiled during that raid, so everyone that was part of it was enemied as you either defiled directly or helped in some way(even if it's just as a body to divert the defenders attention). My Order can and will use shrines to help My intrests, Celestia is one of those intrests. They will not use it every raid, or for any reason. They have very defined guidelines on when to use such things.

Seems like the original answers are given then:

1. Worldburning the influencers was a crafty, low down, unsportsmenlike method of solving a problem: in other words something expected from Fain and Mag. The fact that the move makes influencing impossible on the opposing side means we have some balance testing, though.

2. Diety getting their hands dirty is frowned upon but legit: If the diety in question has a reason to care about a situation, don't assume they are going to get involved, but take the possibility into consideration.

While I'm hearing alot of OOC anger towards these acts, I hope I see it all transfered to RP. While we can all say "Calm down, it'll be ok" to Seren and Celest being swatted like flies OOCly, RPly, a good many of them should be bitter, angry, and, if it's their nature, wishing to pay back with plenty of interest.

So everyone please calm down, relax, take a deep breath, log on, then let the streets flow with the blood of the heathens! DIE! DIE! Charyou Tree

*cough* where'd that come from?

The same way Magnagora is one of Fain's interests, and the Seren and Celestians who were in Stewartsville at the time either influenced or aided the influencers (even if it's just as a body to maintain sanctuary at influenceable mobs), which was a conflict to Magnagoran interests, and hence, they were enemied.

From a practical point of view, if Celest was raiding a Magnagoran village, no Hajamin shrines would be at that village in the first place for them to be able to use.

How can that slippery slope not lead to the Elder Gods cutting down armies of mortals, rendering us all essentially irrelevant, and everyone just logging off in frustration and disgust?

If there isn't already a canon reason why Elder Gods don't get into fights personally with mortals, there needs to be, stat.

There is. The exception is if it's a personal issue.

The difference is someone defiled Hajamin's Shrines in that SG raid, no one touched Fain Shrines in Stewartsville so that's a really illogical statement. Moving along..

Morik and Raf:
How was I enemied to Hajamin? There were no defiled shrines when I was enemied. Then I was worldburned right after which is also the reason that sg shrine got targetted. It was a celestia raid, and I was enemied so I would get worldburned not because i did something against the Order. This happened before with Isune shrines as well, I got enemied so they can worldburn me as a defence for Celestia. Its been going on for ages, though the only time it got cried about was when Syrienne went on the idiot boards to whine about it. The rest of us went to astral got corpses and went on a defile spree. So you're going to say because Celestia is in the best interest of the Order, so Jads reasoning should also hold ground.

Malicia:
Thats the problem you dont believe what i say even though i have never lied to you in an attempt to mislead you. I tell you the truth you come up with some nutty reason why it cant be true and we all stand there dumbfounded by your stubborness.

And me finding things funny is because well see Mali, can you tell me who shouts for praises everytime a number of Mags die? Whos shouts for praises everytime Mag loses. See you like rubbing it in our face. At that moment it didnt take a rocket scientist to figure out you were going to win the village. It didnt take an IQ of infinitum to know we were going to get shafted for it. I didnt need to be omnipotent to know you would be gloating about it. So events go... BAM dead people because of a shrine... I go wtf... BAM more dead people... that looks like a worldburn, oh shit... BAM oh well, there goes one more person who'll be crying like a bitch later.... 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20... hehe then true enough later on you post on the boards that at least you won the village "owned" classic.

Another difference, if I'm understanding the Southgard raid situation correctly, would be that in Southgard the shrines were used defensively in a territory under the protection/influence of New Celest and in Stewartsville they were used offensively in an area not under the influence of anyone.

I'm also amused at the reasoning that influencing or aiding influencers was reason for enemying because doing so "was a conflict to Magnagoran interests." Better catch all the rest of the world in the sweep of enemies, at least ALL Seren and ALL Celestian, since their commune/city holds influence over villages that were free at some point and will be again.

RP is a wonderful thing. Honor and a sense of fairness as a player (not a character) is important too. Help files encourage this and coding supports it. Grace of Innocence as a prime example of being fair in allowing new players to get a sense of things rather than jumping in and being toys or meat. If I go further with this, I'll get off topic, though.

While I'd certainly prefer not being enemied to Fain's Order, if those sorts of actions are the type which the players on that side of things condone, there's obviously enough conflict of beliefs between us that I'll turn my mind away from the basic injustice and see that conflict as reason enough for me to remain one.

Tsuki, does it really matter if it was offensive or defensive? Like Quigyboo said isnt there supposed to be a line between Order and City even though the God is parton of the said city. Where exactly is that line crossed? The reasoning given is the reason that was used on us numerous times before. If they can easyly say its in the interest of the order we can easyly say its in the interest of Fains order. Illogical no, unethical yes. The thing is, some people dont realize how absurd their arguments sound like until its used on them. Which I guess is the point thats trying to be raised. Hey look, they're still trying to defend them using shrines as a tool for their city.

Its like the serpent thing. We called its strength numerous times before then only when it was used on them did they agree it was too strong. Hell people defended the damn skill before and we were all going wtf... then we go use it on them and they start roarin... what do you expect a person to say in those kind of scenarios.

If someone was enemied to My Order during a raid, a shrine was touched. In most of the Celestia raids, the angels that were slain were used by someone to defile a shrine. Having no way(for mortals atleast) to know which person it was, all participated were enemied. Yes, Hajamin has a vested intrest in Celest and Celestia. He has placed alot of interest in Celestia, if you don't know the RP reasons, take a look at ANY peice of armour he wears and you will know why.

I gave the ability to worldburn to many in My Order, which strict rules of when it was permissable to use it. I DID NOT give enemy privs to anyone, aside from the two highest ranking members. This was done for the sole purpose of making sure people were not getting enemied just for worldburn, or any other shrine power. One of the order suggested it, and I said no, thsoe that need it have it.

Hope that makes some things alittle more clear. For those that feel they were enemied for no reason, sorry case of wrong place wrong time(and wrong actions, as something you killed was used against Me).

It's easier to view defensive use of an ability more sympathetically than it is to look at the same ability used offensively. Defenders are reacting to aggression, not instigating it themselves. That said, I wouldn't personally approve of even defensive use of shrines for things not directly affecting said shrine/order/god. I suppose the worldburn could've been seen as a desperate act of pre-emptive defense, since if the view was truly acknowledged that Seren would win the area then Seren could also be assumed to next destroy the shrine and it would've been Seren territory so there would've been Mag/order deaths in attempting to prevent it without the probability of success in protection. Still doesn't make the worldburn use copacetic, but more understandable.

With that thought, I put forth the idea to keep any shrine out of any village. Remove the temptation for borderline abuse. Surely there are enough other places in the world that villages don't need shrines?

They built those shrines DURING influencing.

As for your second point, read the latest announce, they won't work while villages are in play.

Well, okay. Pre-emptive defense only works as explanation for the first one? The first one was there to start ... wasn't it? If not I'm just going to stare at my wall for a bit.

Reading the announcements requires being in the game, and I already shouldn't be on the forums since I should be focusing on something else. Sounds great, though!

Well angels are also a source of power for us. When we kill angels thats the first thing that comes into our heads, more power for us not oh corpse to defile with. When we raid we also try to stick together as well, so if there was something defiled I would most likely have seen it. Also takes 100k essence to take a shrine down so I would have heard about it if someone was asking for corpses. It wasnt just me even, people started saying oh hey i got enemied... couple seconds later worldburn... Maybe there was a defiler we didnt keep track of but even Yrael runs through the channels when looking for corpses. Maybe you need to clarify things with those two people you gave enemy powers to, I dont know. I dont think we were really surprised though, honestly with the track record from the Isune days until now, people get used to the sorts. It really does get aggrivating though when people start screaming and shouting for something their side has been doing to us since well open beta.

When did we ever use worldburn for something else than to defend?

And what did you defend in Stewartsville, when that village was not loyal to Magnagora? Your 'claim' to it?

That time, I did the enemy myself after the first OT about a shrine being defiled. I asked who all is in there, enemy enemy enemy... Might have been someone who just thought hey, lets use a couple to smack this shrine for kicks.