I LOVE YOU.

Just want to say one last thing about the Aetolia esteem system.

There are a lot of parallels between Aetolia's esteem system and Lusternia's karma system. In both cases, there have been cases of player abuse and times when it's not worked, and these have led to very vocal, very widespread criticisms. In both cases, there are tweaks needed (though one hopes that we might get the tweaks in Lusternia -- Aetolia has a "deploy and abandon" coding strategy).

However, in both cases, for every time it didn't work right, there are scores and scores of times when it quietly kept working, being taken for granted, and doing what it was intended to do. As Estarra said just today about karma, it's getting the job done. Everyone listening to the forums would be convinced it's a crock of the stinkiest failure ever, but it's not. Aetolia's esteem system is the same way. If you judge it by what people say about it, you're falling prey to selective perception -- people only complain when it doesn't work and forget when it works.

I'll go so far as to say one more parallel. As a rule of thumb (not a definite rule but a rough one), the people most likely to hate Aetolia's esteem system are the people who can't roleplay nearly as well as they think they can. The people who are good roleplayers, and who know what that means, are a lot more likely to like it. Similarly, the people who most hate karma are the ones who don't have nearly as good a grip on PK policy balances as they think they do, and those who are best at finding those balances and not making everyone else miserable are the ones who like it the most.

If you judge Aetolia's esteem system secondhand or thirdhand, you're not getting anywhere near a reasonable picture of it. Yes, it needed tweaks, just like everything else. Yes, it was sometimes abused, just like everything else.

I've never personally suffered from Karma in any respects whatsoever. I still extremely dislike the system. So I'm not sure that it's necessarily true that those who are hurt by it are the ones who are are going to be against it. More likely would be the assumption that those who understand the implications of the system on the wider balance of the realm (as opposed to just a limiting factor to PK) like it, whereas those who narrowly view it as just a way to give PKers something else to think about are more likely to have a higher opinion of it.

I think you've gone too far to make the assumption I’ve quoted above. I dislike the karma system even though the affects of the system have been pretty much neutral for me. I see problems with the system of karma based on the ease with which it can be circumvented and abused by anyone with a decent level of knowledge of how it works. The examples stated on this very thread go counter to your quoted statement, because the people who actually get around the Karma system are the ones who know the system the best.

My opinion on the Aetolia’s esteem system is based on the same sort of thinking. It is a system that can easily be abused by groups of people to hinder their in game or out of game enemies. The idea sounds nice on paper, but I can easily see the possibilities of abuse by portions of the general player population.

Players can encourage role-play via their own examples. There is no need to give the player population a power that could be easily abused with the cooperation of a few friends. Let the administration monitor the role-play environment and give out the rewards or penalties.

Geb, I put forth that you don't know that much about Aetolia's esteem system, not enough to conclude how readily abusable it is or how significant in scale those abuses could be, let alone how significant they have been.

I can't really respond to the idea about the karma system without just repeating what I said. As Estarra said, and she would know better than you or me, karma is doing what it's there to do. The abuses and the people who finesse the system for their own gain do exist, but they are the exception, and they do not impair the overall effectiveness of the system. You and Rhysus are just arguing from the standpoind of the exact same selective perception that I was talking about in the first place, rather than countering it. Because ultimately that's what it comes down to -- not whether those things happen, but whether they're the rule or the exception, whether they are statistically significant indicators of the overall success of the system. Repeating that they exist doesn't counter me saying "people keep repeating that they exist, but that doesn't prove anything". It's the whole point.

Heh, isn't your opinion slightly biased considering who you are over there?

Any system that gives that much power to the player population to affect the enjoyment of another portion of the player population can easily be abused. I do not have to know the exact process by which that power is handed over to the population to see how any such a thing can be abused by a portion of the said population. If a player wants that type of power over others, let that player work for it by becoming apart of the Administration team and working his or her way up to a God character.

By the same token, you're not doing anything more than positing that just because bad things happen, doesn't mean it's a problem on the large scale. In failing to actually provide -any- backing to that, other than an appeal to authority, your argument is worse off than either mine or Geb's.

How come I can't doit?

No, Rhysus. I quoted a definitive source. It's called evidence.

I think I've said all I need to say when one critic admits not knowing about the system and still is sure he can tell all its ramifications, and the other doesn't consider quoting the only expert witness to be more than "positing". I'm done here.

Well, well. Aren't we touchy this evening. I apologize that you felt so incensed by the fact that your "evidence" was disregarded as little more than piecemeal supposition in light of the actual testimony of players alongside sound theoretical backing and experience. But far be it from me to question such outstanding logic as "We're being told it works, so it works!"

Having had a hand in designing Aetolia's esteem system, I'm confident that the system does indeed work, but I'm not so rash as to say that it is without flaws. By the same merit, Geb, Estarra, and I, as I am sure many others, would agree that the Karma system does work...in some respects. But it is my feeling, and as far as can be told from the vocal portion of the populace, the feeling of many, that there are enough faults to warrant a consideration of what adjustments might be made so as to make the system better.

However, should you feel differently, you are more than welcome to your opinion, though ultimately I have faith that time will prove it lacking.

Sorry, Rhysus. There's only one person who cares more about your opinion than Estarra's. Probably the only person about whose opinion you care, though. But by all means, when you get caught in a bald-faced error, try twisting my words to claim I said something I didn't in hopes that'll distract people from your blunder. That always impresses people. -plonk-

Which blunder was that, again? That I disagreed with you? How horrible!

You didn't provide any evidence, Gwylifar, about anything. Show me where you did and I'll stand down. But, as I said originally, you made nothing short of an outright appeal to authority to buttress your argument.

Particularly given the fact that much of the Karma system was created based upon input from the playerbase (notably in this very forum), I fail to see how those same people speaking about it now are somehow unqualified to do so. Is the only aspect of importance to Estarra and company churn? I highly doubt that. Retention rates being what they are in MUDs in general and between the cannabalizing populations of IRE games, I would say that churn is a less important factor than elder game retention. It is from this viewpoint that I make my opinions concerning Karma known. I have full confidence that Estarra, Roark, et al, are fully aware that I'm not just spouting out of some frustration.

So do I give my opinion more weight than Estarra? No, of course not. But I think it merits consideration, if nothing else, for what it is actually attempting to address, rather than what you mistakenly believe it to be.

If you'd looked in at Aetolia recently, you would've realized that's no longer the case. Varian hired an assistant full-time who makes changes all the time, and implements ideas from the forum.

...You two sound like a pair of children trying to argue over who has the better imaginary friend or something else that has become rather drawn out and lost it's point.

I also apparently was under the false assumption that this thread is about how to encourage proper role play and not whether or not the Karma system works.

While I do not fully understand the Karma system myself, I also do not see how it's functionality directly impacts Role Play. If I'm mistaken then by all means correct me, otherwise could we please get back on topic?

Children don't stretch single sentences into whole paragraphs though.

I said like for a reason...I would have used a different analogy but it wasn't appropriate for this forum.

I wasn't replying to you really, I just took a jab at the conversation.. cause many, many words are being used without actually bringing any content.

Then let's add some content.

Probably the best thing for RP to keep up in Lusternia is to keep the world 'flowing'. By that I mean to make sure that the actions of the people are having an impact on the world. It can be a slow change, or even just evident in minor events, but EVENTUALY it would happen.

There's alot of that already implimented: as a group gains in power, the villages are influenced to them, you'll see more effects as you pass by (I sware I can't go NEAR a Mag owned village without seeing a mass of Taint ). Aiding a village in their quests tend to lead to greater production, while not protecting them leads to a faster revolt.

More can be added though, some of it probably won't take much coding. Although I risk getting the topic hyjacked, I'll bring up Faethorn as a possible example. Say Glom takes control of Faethron and keeps a hold of it for a long time. At first, you'll just see demesnes showing up and Glommies floating around everywhere. Perhaps after the third time in a row holding the village, though, the birds and other sounds you here are replaced with more taint-filled screams. Then the descriptions slowly change ('slowly' because of finding the time to change them ), the beauty of the villlage twisting. The the forest starts to convert to tainted forests and Butter starts moving to 'hide from the guards, which aren't so friendly anymore'.

As as the cities gain in influence, new changes can focus on civilization (not saying "Celest and Mag gain new skills", but maybe the next village to appear has roadways and it tinkering with magic), while commune influence bring more 'nature themed' changes. Slaughtering a village long enough makes the denizens take just slightly longer to appear (lower birth rates, for example). Small things, and perhaps long in showing (perhaps late in showing if all of the admin are busy ) but eventualy it does. No need to advertize it, just one day Celest gets ahold of a village owned by Glom for generations and sees that there's a forest trying to grow in town square . It doesn't add TOO MUCH to conflict if most of the changes aren't 'profit based' (also means no need to balance test it): a village who decided to switch their stone statues with minior elder trees doesn't have to be harder for Celest or Mag to convert, but when they do they'll see it and go "Man, Nature's gone out of hand". Walking around the Serenwilde forest and seeing a few of the trees twisted and filled with hostile, tainted deer won't make the Moonhart tree any weaker, but the citizens will know that they've let Mag and Glom grow a little too large.

A 'flowing' world feels real, and makes you feel like you have a place in it, and that your actions matter; that's one of the biggest steps towards being able to RP.

Oh yes, and books. I want books. It may not improve the world's RP, but it'll help out poor Cwin.