so who are these soft-targets... i say eiru is a soft target! SOFTIE!!!

Seriously though... I dont know, most of the soft-targets that I can think of, have an area or two that they can(or need to) drastically improve on. These things arent impossible to attain either. Lets say Eiru for example, he has never bought an ooc credit that I'm aware of. He has an artipipe and nothing else. He has a grim now but thats recent and he doesnt even have any macro sets for it still. Despite all that though he tanks and beats most artified warriors that i know of(havent seen him beat Daev).

I did 30 wounding to Geb in 2 lunges.
I did 26 to Alger with fieldplate and up to 39 against Vix with no armor and only a tower, and 42 against Alger with no armor at all.

Alger,

How do you expect anyone to regard your opinion other that utterly, 110% bias when you have made comments over and over that being able to pin leg in 1-2 to two combos is acceptable. Of course, you seem to be constantly ignoring the fact that as a Knight, you take far less wounds from other Knights. You fail to take into account the extreme effectiveness of defensive style. You fail to to take into account that as a Blademaster, you can pin someone as easily as they can pin you thus slowing them down dramatically.

Can you seriously tell me that if you are being pinned every 6 seconds that it is easy to manage? Of course I along with many others do not die in a single pin leg. However, it gets to the point where you can pin lock someone.

Given that you pin someone in ~4 normal hits, it isn't too hard to pin with both swords. At this point, you can rend one arm while the other holds the target pinned. You then re-pin with the now free sword and rend the other. I've seen this done over and over. Even by using deepheal to heal -all- of wounds on a limb, I'm back this same situation 2 rounds later.

Furthermore while this is going on, the rending and the pin itself are causing even more wound damage. You cannot clot while pinned either. It is -extremely- easy to build up bleeding damage almost immediately.

EDIT:

And I just love how you can rant on about it being perfectly fine while the Serenguard Envoy who is probably the best Knight combatant is constantly countering with examples of it being too extreme. Perhaps it is time for some re-evaluation of your opinion?

Narsrim,

far less wounding indeed... please refer to the post above you.

Also i rarely use defensive style, we have a lot more styles than that

You meanie
The real problem I had with knights before, that made me scream to myself "OVERPOWERED! NERF!" (I never whined though!), was the ability to spam tackle, and since I'm a guardian class and I heavily rely on my demon, well that was sort of tough.
With good parrying and stancing, like I mentioned on another thread, speed knights aren't that great, I even feel sorry for them.
Alger does about 400-500 damage to me in two combos, ofcourse I don't like the get-blinded-every-combo thing, but it's not so hard to deal with if you're not prone and you can shield.
I must admit, part of my ability to keep up with him is PUER, but there are times, specially recently, where he doesn't get me to any critical stage at all.
I remember when the changes first came in, we'd fight for like 2 minutes or so then I check my WOUNDS and I see them at critical stages, now we fight for quite a few minutes, check them, and they're still at 70 or so.
And Alger, you stinking furball, you have more soft spots than I do!

That's ONE combo, oops.

You have the option to get full platemail, which would drastically reduce the wounds you take. Furthermore, were you in defensive style? Good job ignoring the rest of my former post too.

yesterday. I dun like quoting old stuff. And I know that trans resilience and combat is going to help people fight knights, its obvious. But unless you /do/ get very high in both, you're not going to be dodging anything. Why would people bother to learn to fight if they're going to die because they just don't have the lessons or credits?

This is why I'm asking for more indepth research into how effective things like combat are if you've only learnt to a certain skill level. The nice thing about combat in Achaea is that you didn't have to get to virtuous in seven different skillsets just to stand toe to toe with people. You wouldn't be tanking a seriously overpowered artifact mage, for example, but you could have fun. Combat here isn't just something you do for fun, its something ingrained into on-going conflict. In any case, Ima going to put in an effort into learning how to fight the average blademaster and I'll reserve comments/judgements until then. But please keep in mind that my specific issues with warriors isn't to do with how much damage/wounding they're doing. Its how much someone needs to invest before they can even begin to participate in the ongoing conflict in this realm.

(And I have a rant about the base paralysis time, but that can come later.)

defensive style doesnt reduce wounding as far as i know... i have the option of using Fullplate? You give me 300 credits so i can make my fullplate please. I'm a herbalist, want to buy sparkles? 25k for 1k i have 4k in stock. For guild enemies i will only charge 20% extra.

Anyway point is I'm not really ignoring factors here because they're actually similar to what other people are taking(unless you want to argue that 4 points from 26 - 30 is not similar). I'm not using ungodly armor and my estimates are based on the same people everybody else is fighting. I dont even use defensive sytle as much, usually im more on concentrated or lightning. Of course, you're calling me 110% bias when I've been able to keep up with this so called overpowered wounding. Why would I even bother testing out the difference in armor or sitting down to do strikes over and over against parry stance combos if i didnt even consider that i could be wrong? Yes I'm 110% bias... heh this comes from a guy who gets beaten and the first thing that comes out of his mouth is "nerf". Also from a guy who defends the usage of pooka command on feats, real funny nars.

Your previous post, well theres so many things you're ignoring that i dont know where to begin. You say that lunges will get you to pinned stage fine... If we go by gebs log thats 2 combos, so they can do 1 combo more (considering regen). So after this three combos, all defences come back into play which you have to consider. You also cannot say a warrior will score a pinleg on you every single time, even if it does hit. After all that, if you play it right, no way are they going to be pinning you consecutively. Getting out of pinleg is easy what you have to watch out for is the stage after that.

Also me and terenas talk about this alot too The difference as far as I can see is he thinks people taking 30 wounds is huge... when i've been taking just a little less than that and I say I'm doing fine.

The worst problem with warriors right now, to be honest, is the stupid underwater nerve piercing.

I agree with that one.

Alger, post the log of the testing we did yesterday.

thats incredibly long and just proves stance effectiveness.

Alger, the average soft-target is not able to survive a pinleg/rend combo. Now that is not a problem by itself, since that combo should be something that can bring the average person to death's door. My problem with it is that it should not be such an easy task to accomplish. Yes, a few mages/guardians/wiccans/druids can escape from it, but still it has to be considered that it will kill most of the population of said archetypes. Since that is the case, it should not be so easily achieved through parry, rebounding, and stances with the small expenditure of 4-8 power.

Work for it and acquire the level of wounding required to pull off the pinleg/rend combo is fine with me. Being able to hit an alias 2 to 4 times to essentially guarantee the defeat of your average soft-target is not fine with me. It should be possible to kill with the combo, but not with the ease with which it is possible now against the average soft-target.

whats an average soft-target?

Geb, the average soft target you can just turn demesne on and staffcast them to death.

Talk about mashing macroes!

We are talking about wounds though. If you want to complain about demesnes again, perhaps you can start up a thread about that.

I really want to know the hard numbers for these people who are supposedly doing 20 wounding damage per combo. What is thier STR, DEX, Damage and Percision. Are they doing these numbers to all targets, or just a few targets?

Becasue I'm not seeing anything that brutal.

You know what I mean.

Anyhow, I am done with it. Many people for the most part will only worry over things that can personally effect them. If they do not see it harming them much, they will not care how it may harm others.

Terenas ran down a list of wounds he has given to people. Just look a bit back in the thread; you will find it.

you talking about wounds or pinleg, geb? At this point seems more like the pinleg/rend combo to me.

Also your average soft target is kinda... i dont know like murphy said your average soft target find it hard to deal with a demesne. Your average soft target will also die to aeon + ents. Your average soft target will also die to choke + ents. Your average soft target would probably die to artery bleeding The question is though should you really balance based on this? Then what happens when you fight above average soft targets or umm hard targets! super hard targets? I dont know geb.

oh btw when i said oh no, geb logs! that post wasnt really directed to you, just that one line. I just saw your log and i remembered how i used to get headaches looking at them.... hehe *goes blind* I know... tangent... but I just keep forgetting to say that.