The problem with Terenases numbers is that they are a bit old. Don't know when the changes were made, etc.

Also didn't seem to take all the information into acount.

Roark and Hajamin and few other divine have given us pretty good guidelines on how to test these things, and rarely do I see reports that follow these suggestions.

Should you balance based on hard targets? What happens when you fight soft targets?

I do 6 to 7 wounds per strike to warriors. I have 19 str 12 dex and decent precision on my flails.

The problem is with Blademasters, especially those with rapiers. It is a combination of high wounds, high speed, and crippling jab afflictions (pinleg, impale, pierced lung etc) which has a higher chance of happening due to Lunge. The tickling damage of rapiers is offset by the stacking bleed damage caused by pierced arteries, being scalped and Rend.

On the other hand, the only viable path for a Bonecrusher is damage. The jab afflictions for BC are annoying at most, with the better ones being broken (bashbrain, blackeye, breaknose).

The problem is no-one using hammers.

You can do the exact same thing as blademasters if you do.

Somehow you guys seem to expect to be able to wound like a rapier with flail damage.

Which is odd.

I said the problem is with Blademasters. I did not complain about damage or wounding for Bonecrushers.

Like I said, it's a combination of speed, wounds, jab afflictions and bleeding that makes BM so powerful right now. Why no bonecrushers are using hammers? Because they are ineffective with most BC afflictions can be easily shrugged off. The only exception would be for Ur'guards, who could go the sacrifice way. Without the bleeding or change chervil back to how it was, rapiers would suck just as bad. Well, may be not as bad as hammers, since they can still pinleg. But that's about it.

I'd say I'm a soft target, but I don't die to aeon + ents/choke + ents. I can handle a demesne, too.

Just not knights. Knights make me splattery.

sylphas well considering soft targets can become hard targets and the other way around doesn't exactly happen... what do you reckon? Well this is if i understand what this soft/hard target is...

I don't think you do understand what they're referring to by "soft target." (I could be wrong, of course.) We don't mean people with sucky combat skills, we mean people without really high health/armour like all knights have (and seem to base everything off.) See, you go on about how you can resist damage and wounds no problem. This is because you have good armour, putrefaction, really high health (especially surged) and skills that increase it like transmute etc. you can use if you get into a bind. So obviously you don't have as much trouble resisting damage when you take less and have more so you get more time to apply health. Compare that to a soft target like a Druid who takes, what, 1.8k out of 3k for a Murphy pulp or whatever, and they have far more problems.

i think laysus isnt a soft target and if he worked hard enough at it he could be a lot better. He should consider raising that might of his though before seriously considering fighting because it looks like he's not even tri trans yet, which also means he doesnt have a lot of the essentials in guild and common skills.

thats why i was asking whats this soft target stuff... I was thinking what you were thinking but then you think theres geb who's level 72 and is usually a merian or a faeling. Then he said hes not a soft target so must be something else.

man how many times do i have to repeat with that armor stuff... and putre against single targets? meh... transmute? bleh... stop graspin for straws nej...

The armour affects the wounds a lot more than I thought, where Drawdown doesn't, if that's what you're referring to. And putre was upgraded to 45% reduction, if you test again. And eh, transmute is a lot less so, but Terenas finds it useful (apparently) so it can't be completely disregarded or relevated to a useful force-curse.

As for what Geb said, let me reread it. I think what he meant was that he wasn't an ordinary soft target.

EDIT: Yeah, there we have "the average" soft target.

What you missed about the armor is where i stated around 3 times how i recieve 26 wounds from terenas and geb recieves 30. Theres your huge difference in armor.

I dont use transmute nor putrefaction against single targets... so no... it is not a factor. It maybe useful it may not be, but since i dont use them why would you consider them as a reason to why its easier for me to tank warriors?

You serious? There are a few fighters that are pretty decent for not having transed all of their skills. Torak, to name one. Laysus isn't bad at all. He's just frail. Geb doesn't consider himself a 'soft' target because of his skills and knowledge, but as I take the term, it would mean a person without the same armour and resistances as warriors. We are the tankiest. And I agree with Icarus' post completely. It's the speed of the rapiers and the stacking of afflictions, devastating ones even, in combination with poisons, etc. It's crazy.

The fact that this would become an issue now confuses me since armour protects against wounding the same as it always has. Why wasn't this existing discrepency an issue in the past?

Because wounding never reached these extreme ranges before so no one ever noticed so much, I'd imagine. No one could do two combo pinlegs before.

No one was able to pin leg me in two combos in the past.

As Shiri and Narsrim have stated, the level of wounding nowaday is extremely high compared to in the past. Before the wounding changes I was lucky to get in 2 wounding per jab, but most of the time I would be doing 3 to 4 against a knight in fullplate. But now I'm able to break 13, and up to 20 with 2 lunges. I'm in no way complaining about the level of protection of fullplate since it is afterall a Trans ability with many costs associated and should provide a high level of protection.

However, the imbalance comes when high precision weapons coupled with high Dex and Str are afflicted upon a Mage or Guardians without exceptional protection. Malicia was able to impale Torak on her second Lunge, Daevos was able to pinleg Geb on his 4th lunge, and I can bring someone into critical with 4 lunges (which are all essentially unstoppable). It would seem that there is a huge gap between wounding redution and armor protection at certain levels. For example, with a difference of 32 cutting protection, I went from taking taking 24 wounding down to roughly 12 wounding when testing with fieldplate and fullplate.

Maybe I should test against non knights but I found no problem with wounding recently in my tests. And my only problem is that I think speed warriors shouldn't be superior to damage warriors in dealing out wound damage. Especially now that Roark has been able to figure out a way to separate wound damage from the rate of wound afflicting. Also think puer and the equivalent skill in Healing are too good, and should be weakened a bit, as well as lowered in mana cost.

Just did a quick test on Eruttu who is a Nihilist wearing greatrobes.

My stats at the time:
Strength : 15 Dexterity : 12 Constitution : 16
Intelligence : 8 Size : 15 Charisma : 9

Greatrobe stats:
57 Cutting 32 Blunt

Weapon stats:
59 Damage 225 Precision 234 Speed

Focusing on her right leg, you strike at Eruttu with a baleful rapier of darkened steel. You strike powerfully into her right leg, and blood fountains out in a thick spray.

Targetted Strike
Wound damage: 14
Affliction: PierceLeg
Wound state needed for affliction: Medium

With a powerful lunge, you strike at Eruttu's left leg with a baleful rapier of darkened steel. You strike her left leg, striking a major artery which splurts blood in all directions.

Lunge
Wound damage: 23
Affliction: LegArtery
Wound state needed for affliction: Negligible

Wound Healing:
Applying health: 22
Puer: 43

Current Wound Table:
Negligible: 99-100
Light: 91-98
Medium: 90
Heavy: 70-89
Critical: 0-69

My Assessment:
The only problem I see with wound damage right now is the fact that rapiers are doing that kind of damage, and when you think of the speed with which they can hit with, there can be no doubt that it is over the top. And I would personally like to see wound damage go back to being mainly altered by the damage stat, instead of precision. While precision alters the rate of afflicting, venoms as well as wounds. The real problem though, lies in the wound table not the current damage levels. It should be harder to reach the higher wound states, while easier to get those afflictions once you do get someone that low.

My Wound Table Suggestion:
Negligible: 95-100
Light: 85-95
Medium: 65-84
Heavy: 35-64
Critical: 0-34

Since when does Daevos normally have 15 strength?