Shiri2005-06-22 15:07:28
QUOTE(Erion @ Jun 22 2005, 04:03 PM)
Just as a Glommer would be mad if Crow turned into Raven and went to snuggle with Hart, or how a Seren would be if Hart suddenly got tainted and had mansex with Crow.
142889
I think that's exactly the point.
Erion2005-06-22 15:09:32
QUOTE(Elryn @ Jun 22 2005, 10:54 AM)
Ninja'd?
Edit: Rereading the histories, I noticed that pretty much everyone from the Empire used 'Light' in a form of epithet... not just those from Old Celest. I suspect it represents the philsophy of the Empire as a whole, and at the very least both Shallamar and Celestia, if not the other two as well.
Edit: Rereading the histories, I noticed that pretty much everyone from the Empire used 'Light' in a form of epithet... not just those from Old Celest. I suspect it represents the philsophy of the Empire as a whole, and at the very least both Shallamar and Celestia, if not the other two as well.
142882
As I said (scroll back up - stupid mod reviewness!), the Light is a metaphysical entity on Celestia. Everyone else fell under the control of the Holy Celestine Empire - thus, the Light was used interchangeably. Vortex was Chaos, Continuum was Order, Celestia was Light, and Shallamar was Truth/Fate.
The Light was used just like America uses things like patriotism. You're either patriotic, or you're an evil, knee-jerk liberal who hates America and sides with terrorists. Similiarly, so was the term "communist", back with McCarthy.
Erion2005-06-22 15:16:20
QUOTE(Elryn @ Jun 22 2005, 11:02 AM)
... yes, if you want to redefine the word 'nature', sure. You can probably still call a demon lord an emanation too if you wanted. Though I bet Magnagora's players would be a tad unhappy if Luciphage started riding around on discs of light making peace, and went back to saying 'light and love' all the time.
Where are people getting the truth/fate but oh gods not light business from?
Where are people getting the truth/fate but oh gods not light business from?
142888
Because there is very little, if anything, to suggest the "Light" was on Shallamar or any other plane. Light is a metaphysical entity on Celestia, nothing more. It's teachings may extend beyond the Plane, but that's where it is. Methrenton represents the offensive, heretic-destroying manners found in the Spanish Inquisition. Shakaniel represents Jihad, or a coming together to protect the Faith (NOT a Holy War, like conservative american media uses it). Japhiel represents mercy in the form of death - one can see this in tolling out the death sentence. You have commited crimes and transgressions against the Light, and you now realize the errors of your ways - so he grants you peace from the horrors you've committed. Raziela represents the eternal, undieing love that is the trademark of the Light, toted by those whom cannot fight, under the facade of pacifism. Elohora is the culmination of all these aspects, just as Maeve is formed by all of the Great Spirits. Elohora holds, and held, NO connections with the Emanations. If they were a part of the Light, She surely would have, and thus would have suffered similiarly from the Taint as Maeve does from Night. Half of Maeve is now tainted, just as half of Elohora would have been. This is obviously not the case.
Erion2005-06-22 15:20:59
QUOTE(Elryn @ Jun 22 2005, 11:02 AM)
Where are people getting the truth/fate but oh gods not light business from?
142888
I forgot to add this, about Shallamar. The way a it's been looked at, from as far as I can tell, it represented truth. However, I tend to disagree - I tend to lean more towards it Fate. Everyone represented an Aspect of it - or at least, ideal ends one could strive for. You had Baalphegar with the Golden Voice, who could sing a song so beautiful no man or woman could resist falling in love with Him. Queen Nifilhema was the ultimate form of beauty and love - she, like Baalphegar, could not have been denied her true status - the most beautiful and lovely of all creations. King Gorgaliel the Peacemaker represented powerful political leaders, people whom lead the masses fairly, and made good judgements, found middle grounds when arguements broke out.
Nokraenom2005-06-22 15:27:49
QUOTE(Elryn @ Jun 22 2005, 09:02 AM)
Where are people getting the truth/fate but oh gods not light business from?
142888
The Magnagoran House of Prophets and its wide respect, the Fatalists (hard to say if this refers to Fate or to the belief in Fatalism, but it seems more likely to be the former), and that the Fates took up residence on Shallamar instead of one of the other planes are indicitive that Shallamar may be strongly tied to Prophecy or to the idea of Fate.
The nexus of power is the Stone of Truth, coupled with Magnagora's largely secular nature and interest in seeking truth indicates that perhaps Shallamar is linked to Truth. Prophecy is, in a way, a means of trying to divine the truth of a matter before it occurs, and could also be linked to the concept of Truth. Fate suggests that there is an absolute truth for all of us, even if we don't know it ourselves yet.
Unknown2005-06-22 15:28:11
Can someone define 'nature' for me? Just to be sure we are all thinking of the same thing when someone says 'OMG nature is ruined with Glomdoring/Serenwilde/Happyland' and whatnot.
Erion2005-06-22 15:37:36
QUOTE(Nokraenom @ Jun 22 2005, 11:27 AM)
The Magnagoran House of Prophets and its wide respect, the Fatalists (hard to say if this refers to Fate or to the belief in Fatalism, but it seems more likely to be the former), and that the Fates took up residence on Shallamar instead of one of the other planes are indicitive that Shallamar may be strongly tied to Prophecy or to the idea of Fate.
The nexus of power is the Stone of Truth, coupled with Magnagora's largely secular nature and interest in seeking truth indicates that perhaps Shallamar is linked to Truth. Prophecy is, in a way, a means of trying to divine the truth of a matter before it occurs, and could also be linked to the concept of Truth. Fate suggests that there is an absolute truth for all of us, even if we don't know it ourselves yet.
The nexus of power is the Stone of Truth, coupled with Magnagora's largely secular nature and interest in seeking truth indicates that perhaps Shallamar is linked to Truth. Prophecy is, in a way, a means of trying to divine the truth of a matter before it occurs, and could also be linked to the concept of Truth. Fate suggests that there is an absolute truth for all of us, even if we don't know it ourselves yet.
142898
None of the Nexus are really identicle to the purpouse of their cosmic plane. Pool of Stars, Eternal Flame, Matrix, Stone of Truth. Although it does tell you it's Water, fire, earth, stars suggests light/heavens, eternal suggesting adaptation/evolution/change for survival, truth suggesting, as you said, secular nature.
I still believe they followed the Fates for the most part, as Celestia follows the Light. When the Fates knew the Taint was coming, their place on Shallamar no longer existed - so they created a bubble on the Astral Plane, and gave it the same name.
Saikado2005-06-22 15:38:48
QUOTE(Erion @ Jun 22 2005, 07:03 AM)
Just as a Glommer would be mad if Crow turned into Raven and went to snuggle with Hart, or how a Seren would be if Hart suddenly got tainted and had mansex with Crow.
142889
...Anyone have some popcorn and a camera? If that happens I want PROOF it's possible.
Erion2005-06-22 15:40:51
QUOTE(Saikado @ Jun 22 2005, 11:38 AM)
...Anyone have some popcorn and a camera? If that happens I want PROOF it's possible.
142903
I'll be making recordings, and have showings in my bedroom regularly. Continous loop, most likely. Boys only?
*/hijack*
Erion2005-06-22 15:48:19
QUOTE(Shiri @ Jun 22 2005, 11:07 AM)
I think that's exactly the point.
142890
I guess my point was poorely expressed. Elryn's example was a radical change to something people have dedicated their RP to. Glomdoring is absolutely no different right now than it was when the game opened. People have based their RP on what is happening there, NOT what Elryn would like to be happening there. If we suddenly sent Luciphage floating around on a disc of Light, he's not following his current perspective. He's still an emanation, yes. But he's not the emanation he used to be - but, isn't that what evolution is? Evolution is a part of Nature. It can be totally natural, but be caused by unnatural means. Like right now, foxes and birds are being forced to migrate further north and are adapting to the new regions because of global warming. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8308309/ for the article. It's humans that are forcing the evolutionary changes - like the fruit fly gene associated with hot, dry weather starting to appear in far more southern, cooler region fruit flies.
Syrienne2005-06-22 20:04:22
I just think this is all motivated by the wrong reasons. Basing an entire grief off the fact you're unhappy Faelings got specialised in Glomdoring into a more sinister type of Faeling is a totally poor excuse to be ranting on the forums about an entire Commune. If anything if you didn't see this coming you're a dink because you knew somehting had to be specialised and really I couldnt see them putting Elfen in two locations because their scheme thus far has been wanting to give each community its own unique race to draw people to it.. yea ok you played the race long before it got specialised, good for you, really, but Dracnari face the same oncoming change coming too but I dont see any of them ranting about how they feel the city itself needs to be changed to fit their image of Dracnari.
Seriously I mean move on and get over it.. it's not like unspecialised Faeling are useless or else you'd quit being one long before Glomdoring. Continue your RP of the nice little snuggly Faeling and we'll continue ours of the sinister evil Faeling and let your quest be about destroying us 'abominations' or whatever you want to refer to us as and move on. Glomdoring is as much an alive forest as any other.. I Think this was represented clearly when the Ravenwood went dormant and dead then was revived when it was filled with essence, if the Glomdoring is just a dead husk then how could so many changes occur within it as the Nexus was powered and the Commune itself emerged.
Seriously I mean move on and get over it.. it's not like unspecialised Faeling are useless or else you'd quit being one long before Glomdoring. Continue your RP of the nice little snuggly Faeling and we'll continue ours of the sinister evil Faeling and let your quest be about destroying us 'abominations' or whatever you want to refer to us as and move on. Glomdoring is as much an alive forest as any other.. I Think this was represented clearly when the Ravenwood went dormant and dead then was revived when it was filled with essence, if the Glomdoring is just a dead husk then how could so many changes occur within it as the Nexus was powered and the Commune itself emerged.
Erion2005-06-22 20:15:28
QUOTE(Syrienne @ Jun 22 2005, 04:04 PM)
I just think this is all motivated by the wrong reasons. Basing an entire grief off the fact you're unhappy Faelings got specialised in Glomdoring into a more sinister type of Faeling is a totally poor excuse to be ranting on the forums about an entire Commune. If anything if you didn't see this coming you're a dink because you knew somehting had to be specialised and really I couldnt see them putting Elfen in two locations because their scheme thus far has been wanting to give each community its own unique race to draw people to it.. yea ok you played the race long before it got specialised, good for you, really, but Dracnari face the same oncoming change coming too but I dont see any of them ranting about how they feel the city itself needs to be changed to fit their image of Dracnari.
Seriously I mean move on and get over it.. it's not like unspecialised Faeling are useless or else you'd quit being one long before Glomdoring. Continue your RP of the nice little snuggly Faeling and we'll continue ours of the sinister evil Faeling and let your quest be about destroying us 'abominations' or whatever you want to refer to us as and move on. Glomdoring is as much an alive forest as any other.. I Think this was represented clearly when the Ravenwood went dormant and dead then was revived when it was filled with essence, if the Glomdoring is just a dead husk then how could so many changes occur within it as the Nexus was powered and the Commune itself emerged.
Seriously I mean move on and get over it.. it's not like unspecialised Faeling are useless or else you'd quit being one long before Glomdoring. Continue your RP of the nice little snuggly Faeling and we'll continue ours of the sinister evil Faeling and let your quest be about destroying us 'abominations' or whatever you want to refer to us as and move on. Glomdoring is as much an alive forest as any other.. I Think this was represented clearly when the Ravenwood went dormant and dead then was revived when it was filled with essence, if the Glomdoring is just a dead husk then how could so many changes occur within it as the Nexus was powered and the Commune itself emerged.
143042
I think you hit a very good point. However, Elryn has been on his "taint and nature cannot exist together" rant for a long time. Sounds almost like a civil rights era southern white man trying to keep us black brothers down. =\\
His arguement is more than it can't exist, and Lusternia's doing it wrong. I guess. So, quick, change it to Gloriana so the communes can work together. Which seems really stupid to me. Because then, when it's Gloriana and Serenwilde versus celest versus Mag, Mag needs to get untainted so the cities can work together, to defend themselves against the communes..
But we won't see Celest crying "OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGCITIESCAN'TBETAINTED,TAINTISTHEOPPOSITEOFACITY". I guess. He's look at Taint like it's some form of utter destruction. As someone else said here, it probably was. It was a weakened version of destruction. And, in time, Viravain was able to further water-down the destruction, doing what Erion and the Coven couldn't - turn it into a working symbiotic entity. Where Nature now uses Taint for self-empowerement, instead of Taint using Nature as a feeding ground, as it has been for a while.
Shikari2005-06-22 22:00:33
Hmm, reading through these posts, I find a few interesting points that are worth looking at briefly here.
Firstly, no matter how much you hope for it, Gloriana will, in all likelihood not come back. It was destroyed, and now you have Glomdoring. Even the changes that Viravain made to it were temporary.
Secondly, I find the Taint debate interesting, but hopefully, it is something that people will ask about in the game itself, so I will content myself with saying that the Taint 'proper', so to speak, does not spread without the close proximity of Kethuru.
Yes, the 'tainted forest' and the 'tainted rooms' which the Geomancers and Blacktalon can spread, but I think that you will find it helpful to view those as manifestations of the magic of the person that casts them, much as the 'forest' and the 'flood' that the Hartstone and Aquamancers cast, respectively.
Firstly, no matter how much you hope for it, Gloriana will, in all likelihood not come back. It was destroyed, and now you have Glomdoring. Even the changes that Viravain made to it were temporary.
Secondly, I find the Taint debate interesting, but hopefully, it is something that people will ask about in the game itself, so I will content myself with saying that the Taint 'proper', so to speak, does not spread without the close proximity of Kethuru.
Yes, the 'tainted forest' and the 'tainted rooms' which the Geomancers and Blacktalon can spread, but I think that you will find it helpful to view those as manifestations of the magic of the person that casts them, much as the 'forest' and the 'flood' that the Hartstone and Aquamancers cast, respectively.
Gwylifar2005-06-22 22:14:33
We knew Gloriana was doomed long before Viravain showed up. When She started untainting, and a few would-be Glomdorians got worried and said so here, several of us who were in the forefront of efforts to revive Gloriana IC said as much here, that we knew Gloriana had to die for the sake of the game, we were okay with that, we were prepared for it.
But that's unrelated to the fact that IC we desperately hoped and desperately struggled for the redemption of Gloriana, and were desperately crushed by how close we got before defeat snatched victory from us.
It's also irrespective of the fact that OOC, many of us raised concerns about what Glomdoring would do to the game (making many of us miserable and crushing much of the RP and other things we came to the game for) and that those concerns have pretty well all come true to the letter, and that we hope some means can be found to change things. We know that "Glomdoring goes away" isn't realistically an option there, though sometimes in the pits of desparation we might almost hope it were. But something has to be done.
None of these three things should be conflated with either of the other two.
But that's unrelated to the fact that IC we desperately hoped and desperately struggled for the redemption of Gloriana, and were desperately crushed by how close we got before defeat snatched victory from us.
It's also irrespective of the fact that OOC, many of us raised concerns about what Glomdoring would do to the game (making many of us miserable and crushing much of the RP and other things we came to the game for) and that those concerns have pretty well all come true to the letter, and that we hope some means can be found to change things. We know that "Glomdoring goes away" isn't realistically an option there, though sometimes in the pits of desparation we might almost hope it were. But something has to be done.
None of these three things should be conflated with either of the other two.
Lisaera2005-06-22 22:32:14
I think the problem here is you believe your characters have to be right (actually what your OOC self thinks is right) in their beliefs.
They don't.
They don't.
Elryn2005-06-22 22:32:28
QUOTE(Syrienne @ Jun 23 2005, 06:04 AM)
I just think this is all motivated by the wrong reasons. Basing an entire grief off the fact you're unhappy Faelings got specialised in Glomdoring into a more sinister type of Faeling is a totally poor excuse to be ranting on the forums about an entire Commune. If anything if you didn't see this coming you're a dink because you knew somehting had to be specialised and really I couldnt see them putting Elfen in two locations because their scheme thus far has been wanting to give each community its own unique race to draw people to it.. yea ok you played the race long before it got specialised, good for you, really, but Dracnari face the same oncoming change coming too but I dont see any of them ranting about how they feel the city itself needs to be changed to fit their image of Dracnari.
Seriously I mean move on and get over it.. it's not like unspecialised Faeling are useless or else you'd quit being one long before Glomdoring. Continue your RP of the nice little snuggly Faeling and we'll continue ours of the sinister evil Faeling and let your quest be about destroying us 'abominations' or whatever you want to refer to us as and move on. Glomdoring is as much an alive forest as any other.. I Think this was represented clearly when the Ravenwood went dormant and dead then was revived when it was filled with essence, if the Glomdoring is just a dead husk then how could so many changes occur within it as the Nexus was powered and the Commune itself emerged.
Seriously I mean move on and get over it.. it's not like unspecialised Faeling are useless or else you'd quit being one long before Glomdoring. Continue your RP of the nice little snuggly Faeling and we'll continue ours of the sinister evil Faeling and let your quest be about destroying us 'abominations' or whatever you want to refer to us as and move on. Glomdoring is as much an alive forest as any other.. I Think this was represented clearly when the Ravenwood went dormant and dead then was revived when it was filled with essence, if the Glomdoring is just a dead husk then how could so many changes occur within it as the Nexus was powered and the Commune itself emerged.
143042
Did you start reading from the beginning of the thread? My opinions on Glomdoring are not based on Faelings at all. I have been arguing against a taint-based 'nature' organization since Glomdoring commune was a glimmer in Visaeris' eye.
You're confusing two separate issues.
The first issue is Glomdoring itself. I am happy with a tainted nature-corrupting organization. This is the Glomdoring we have had from the start of the game, and although I'd personally prefer an untainted Glomdoring, this is still perfectly acceptable and gives those who want to play tainted characters a good opportunity. Making mechanics and RP revolve around an artifice that I find goes against the established mythos, however, is something I still lament.
The second issue you are bringing up is the anti-Faeling specialization. Yes, I was shocked and saddened by the decision to split an existing race into two disturbing subraces. I have already argued why. Aside from the fact that Faelings were already neutral to good/evil, just firmly on the side of nature, the shadowfaelings have arrived to undo the essential characteristics of the race. It is not a smooth and logical progression in character development from Faeling to shadowfaeling, unlike every other specialization. It means Faelings are less suited to the communes where they would at least be equally suited. It means that Faelings must be balanced to incorporate ridiculous standards, like being appropriate for a warrior archetype. The advantages of Faelings over shadowfaelings have been eroded. There are no gentle, wise, and beautiful Viscanti specializations, no gangrenous, evil, brutish Merian specializations, no patient, caring, willowy Taurian specializations. I don't particularly want to get into this argument again, it's the way it is. I think it's a hasty and silly decision, but what can I do?
Let's discuss one thing at a time. Glomdoring's place in the ideological landscape of Lusternia is not dependent on their race specialization.
Elryn2005-06-22 22:36:09
QUOTE(Lisaera @ Jun 23 2005, 08:32 AM)
I think the problem here is you believe your characters have to be right (actually what your OOC self thinks is right) in their beliefs.
They don't.
They don't.
143173
I think that depends on what you are looking for from the Lusternian experience.
If you want to roleplay above all else, then taking on the part of a obviously proven wrong zealot might be interesting. If you want to immerse yourself in a virtual world that is rich and engaging, I certainly wouldn't find it fun.
Melanchthon2005-06-22 22:39:35
QUOTE(Elryn @ Jun 22 2005, 10:36 PM)
I think that depends on what you are looking for from the Lusternian experience.
If you want to roleplay above all else, then taking on the part of a obviously proven wrong zealot might be interesting. If you want to immerse yourself in a virtual world that is rich and engaging, I certainly wouldn't find it fun.
If you want to roleplay above all else, then taking on the part of a obviously proven wrong zealot might be interesting. If you want to immerse yourself in a virtual world that is rich and engaging, I certainly wouldn't find it fun.
Indeed.
Unknown2005-06-22 22:46:38
QUOTE
We knew Gloriana was doomed long before Viravain showed up. When She started untainting, and a few would-be Glomdorians got worried and said so here, several of us who were in the forefront of efforts to revive Gloriana IC said as much here, that we knew Gloriana had to die for the sake of the game, we were okay with that, we were prepared for it.
But that's unrelated to the fact that IC we desperately hoped and desperately struggled for the redemption of Gloriana, and were desperately crushed by how close we got before defeat snatched victory from us.
It's also irrespective of the fact that OOC, many of us raised concerns about what Glomdoring would do to the game (making many of us miserable and crushing much of the RP and other things we came to the game for) and that those concerns have pretty well all come true to the letter, and that we hope some means can be found to change things. We know that "Glomdoring goes away" isn't realistically an option there, though sometimes in the pits of desparation we might almost hope it were. But something has to be done.
None of these three things should be conflated with either of the other two.
But that's unrelated to the fact that IC we desperately hoped and desperately struggled for the redemption of Gloriana, and were desperately crushed by how close we got before defeat snatched victory from us.
It's also irrespective of the fact that OOC, many of us raised concerns about what Glomdoring would do to the game (making many of us miserable and crushing much of the RP and other things we came to the game for) and that those concerns have pretty well all come true to the letter, and that we hope some means can be found to change things. We know that "Glomdoring goes away" isn't realistically an option there, though sometimes in the pits of desparation we might almost hope it were. But something has to be done.
None of these three things should be conflated with either of the other two.
This sums up my my feelings on the matter thoroughly, completely, and perfectly.
Estarra2005-06-22 23:10:38
I haven't really been able to closely track this thread, but from what I can tell is that there may be too much emphasis on what is and isn't 'nature'. Rather than looking at it from the perspective of "this is nature" and "that isn't nature" (i.e., natural forest vs. tainted forest), isn't it possible that both are nature? I've gotten that impression by some people who claim that the nature skill shouldn't be compatible with tainted forest that somehow there is only one type of 'true' nature. That nature can only be the natural cycle of the seasons, birth, death, rebirth, etc. This logic winds down to: Taint isn't natural therefore it is "anti-nature".
But, I think, perhaps the nature of "tainted forest" isn't being properly understood in an RP sense. I would suggest that it IS nature, but perhaps it is an alien nature, perhaps one is out of control. It seeks to infest the natural forests, devouring it and claiming it for its own. I really don't understand why a person with this stance is a "proven wrong zealot".
Consider: A cancerous tumor may be part of your body, but most of us don't really want one and will fight to get rid of it. So too is a tainted forest a part of nature, but there's nothing wrong with wanting to get rid of it.
The problem is getting stuck in the mindset that if it's a part of nature, then it must be good and protected or that nature always seeks a harmonious balance. Well, then, you would have no problem for a natural earthquake that sinks the entire Basin of Life. Or a species of tree eating birds that get blown in from a hurricane and eat the entire Serenwilde forest. If you take the perspective that not all things in nature are balanced or healthy, you'll have a much easier time confronting tainted forest (if you choose) as being a part of nature that is inimical, unhealthy, unbalanced and dangerous.
But, I think, perhaps the nature of "tainted forest" isn't being properly understood in an RP sense. I would suggest that it IS nature, but perhaps it is an alien nature, perhaps one is out of control. It seeks to infest the natural forests, devouring it and claiming it for its own. I really don't understand why a person with this stance is a "proven wrong zealot".
Consider: A cancerous tumor may be part of your body, but most of us don't really want one and will fight to get rid of it. So too is a tainted forest a part of nature, but there's nothing wrong with wanting to get rid of it.
The problem is getting stuck in the mindset that if it's a part of nature, then it must be good and protected or that nature always seeks a harmonious balance. Well, then, you would have no problem for a natural earthquake that sinks the entire Basin of Life. Or a species of tree eating birds that get blown in from a hurricane and eat the entire Serenwilde forest. If you take the perspective that not all things in nature are balanced or healthy, you'll have a much easier time confronting tainted forest (if you choose) as being a part of nature that is inimical, unhealthy, unbalanced and dangerous.