I'm going to open this post be pre-empting something I just know someone would post if I didn't. If some stupid person makes the post it applies to, I will quote it, and show them to be the idiot they are!

DISCLAIMER: I am aware that the Lusternia administration, as well as IRE in general, discourages rogues. This post is not about that FACT, it is about why it's like this at all.

Why are rogues discouraged? Again and again the Divine (and Richter, and others) post that rogues can be screwed because IRE discourages rogues. Yea it's become pretty obvious by this point that they do. Do a search for "rogue" in the ideas forum. In nearly every thread you'll find a post like "Yea that would be awesome, but it would make life easier for rogues. Sorry."

What is so inherently bad about helping rogues? So sure, they don't have access to a nexus, so no power. That makes sense, its a logical consequence of the power system. But what about all the rest? Why is it that the administration comes out and says "Sure, being a rogue offers interesting RP freedoms and opprotunities, but life is going to suck." Why must it? I mean I don't want to open up the RPE can of worms again but come on...

Okay, so we don't want to make it disadvantageous to be in a city, that I understand. That would make cities pointless. But if that's the only reason why, then that doesn't mean we can't make rogues impossible, just not better than cities. Why should RP be the only incentive to go rogue? If I want to play a character that doesn't quite fit the classes, sure, I have to accept the consequences, but why must the admins be so darn adamant about discouraging me?

Take a look at Achaea and Aetolia. Look at all the people who cause problems and tend to get shrubbed... you will see a pattern: rogues. While not always the case, I found in Aetolia it was often a rogue

I agree, the biggest trouble makers and the ones who always got shrubbed were Rogues

So the reason rogues don't get skills is because they cause trouble? So people don't decide to become rogues? I think you have it backwards.

Bad people irritate orgs and get kicked out, then cause trouble as unwanted rogues

Rogues aren't bad, bad are rogues.

Because generally, people being forced to roleplay within a set of rules - works.

I became a bored rogue in Achaea.

Force rp is great, Amaru!

But by forcing it one one level, we discourage it on so many wider levels. You'll note that some of the best RPers are (or were at some point) rogues for the increased freedom of RP

But do we want rogue RPers? Or do we want organisational RP? Personally I hate it when everyone can have their own agenda. It would ruin a lot of the structural simplicity which makes Lusternia so enjoyable to be a part of.

Edit: You can still roleplay an individual, as part of organisations.

Its bad to be a rogue only because you lose the powerfull link to the spiritual powers of anything related to Power and Nexi.

I've been rogue for longer than most people, so I've had plenty of time to think on the matter.

I think rogues are discouraged for a few reasons.. For one, they don't tend to belong to communities. Few people are rogues by choice.. They are the outcasts, the shunned, the people who don't cut it elsewhere. In a way, being a rogue is a punishment, most of the time.

Secondly is the issue of "troublemakers". Yeah it sucks, but very often the few cause trouble for the many

I think right now Rogues are punished a bit *too* harshly. Not having a channel to talk on, limited social outlets, no immolation, no conglutination from villages when they're up for grabs, no linking, etc.. I think they need to be targetted a little less.. Not given anything, or have the current penalties reduced/removed(village conglutination aside), but they just need to be less hated.

Rogues make things interesting. Lusternia has no rogues. Hmmm.

Just as another thought for why there's so much anti-Rogue stuff..

There's not a lot of people who will leave Magnagora. And small amounts of people leaving would not hurt Magnagora much. Small amounts of people leaving say.. Glom, or Celest.. would hurt them a lot.

In real life, there are advantages to being a lone wolf. No one to answer to, freedom to do as you want. There are disadvantages, too. No one to help you, no one to come to your aid when you're in trouble. The balance is such that most people find "lone wolf" more bad than good, but a handful of people like it, so lone wolf is a rare but not unheard-of thing.

In many games, the advantages of lone wolf are implemented, but the disadvantages are not. As a result, in these games, almost everyone ends up a lone wolf. When the game intends to stimulate roleplaying, this tends to ensure that it doesn't happen, because everyone's off on their own.

IRE games include a number of mechanisms to counter that, tilting the balance back closer to real life, or maybe even a bit more skewed away from being a lone wolf, because that pushes people together, attaches them to purposes and causes, and thus encourages roleplaying opportunities.

It also makes better stories. Most of your adventure-fiction stories that feature a lone wolf also feature that lone wolf being dragged back into contact with everyone else. This is not a coincidence.

Well, I can understand the whole intention of Rogue being a punishment... But I left Serenwilde (mostly) willingly, due to the fact that I had no intention of going the psychotic fanatical route that they were headed for... And are now in full force...

I honestly enjoy being rogue... True there are certain drawbacks, not having a guild of more experienced people, no power (besides astral which I'm finding doable, though difficult)... And of course the newest hurdle of Flow not working between Serenwilde and Glomdoring... But I'm getting used to the portals now, Thank you Richter!

I have two clans... my Family clan, and the Lakewoods (for researching Ackleberry)... So they keep me interested most times... And then theres the freedom of being welcome in pretty much all four society's... I can portal to Magnagora, shop around for stuff, talk to people, offer some refills, whatever, then, portal out, go to my manse, get bored, and go to celest... then to Serenwilde for herbs, or whatever, then Glom to see my kids and just chat... Then up to astral for a while... I'm my own leader, and I find the freedom of not having any big organization telling me what to do a serious advantage, because I enjoy learning everything I can about the various societys... And my position in the world now lets me do that to my hearts content...

Well said, as ever, Gwylifar.

Can I use that lovely smiley again?

The thing is, I think we could be doing more to achieve that balance you mention Gwylifar. Give the rogues more freedom, not less, and allow them to continue without support or a nexus. Why not conglutination in villages? Yes I know Estarra invented an RP reason that that doesn't happen, but we all know the RP explained the code, it wasn't coded after the RP. It could easily be changed.

Teleport nexus is good. Give the rogues the freedom to move and to bash and to act alone. Letting them conglutinate to the portal (they can teleport to it, and cmon its TRANS planar) and letting them conglute during villages isn't unreasonable. It doesn't make rogues attractive. They're still unattractive. They just have more freedom.

The problem isn't that Lusternia takes away Rogues connections and community, it by rights should be doing that. That's why I don't support a rogue chat channel. The problem is that we take away the freedom of rogues. We shouldn't be doing that, it skews that balance.

Let's face it, most people that play Lusternia are powergamers. Not the well known people, the wild masses of 12 year olds. You know who you are. They're not going to go rogue, I think you know that too, even if the conglutination worked. The only people that would go rogue are the RPers and the punished, and we shouldn't take away their freedom because the only advantage that rogues have is freedom. We discourage freedoms that rogues should have. Why would we do that, so long as being a rogue is a huge disadvantage compared to having a city? That's what this post is about. Why do we take away their freedom for no reason.

You have to consider, before you reply, that adding conglutination, or rather not taking away rogues' ability to conglutinate, will not make everyone go rogue. It doesn't encourage rogues, and it doesn't destroy Basin RP. It just helps to place the balance where it should be.

Since most rogues are RP'ers, what we're doing is encouraging rogue RP without encouraging people to become rogues. The system makes it so being a rogue gives you the freedom you are due and allows you to RP whatever you want, unconstrained by Guilds, Classes, and the other hardcoded factors that limit (not eliminate, but put a damper on) individuality within orgs.

The average Lusternian will not forsake orgs to go rogue. RPers that go rogue for RP reasons aren't unduly punished moreso than in RL.

Why not I ask?

Oh my god!! I just saw your Sig Sekreh! ROFL!! Did that really happen?

Yep, it happened.

That's one of the silliest statements that I've ever seen

Planar conglutination is something the players body learns to do. City and village conglutination is something the city/commune Nexus does. Thus without a Nexus, you don't have a Nexus to conglute you. As for TELEPORT NEXUS, that is normal teleport, targted at your Nexus, rouges just target the portal instead.