Having played for ages in Achaea, I think I can confidently say that one of the greatest failures there was keeping to the idea that players face responsibility and consequences for their actions from other players. It was a good idea in theory, and one that works FAR better in Lusternia. In Achaea it failed miserably, and one huge reason was the viability of rogues. Once you got class, you really didn't have to answer to anyone or anything for your actions (as long as they weren't breaking Admin rules, obviously...although really, they got away with that too). Maybe not all the worst were rogues, but enough of them were rogues to make it clear that rogues, as a whole, are bad, bad, bad things. Rogues that are working for something, like disciples of crow, that's cool. Rogues generally are trouble, people having no one they answer to is BAD for our ability as players to police our own population.

Thank you, Lusternia, for not making the lives of rogues easy, and helping us maintain our own RP environment.

I've been a rogue for a month or more.

All my time on lusternia is now as follows:

I think IRE games are already at the right balance, actually. Very close to real life, or slightly more against lone wolves, which is just what is needed to make for more roleplaying. That's one of the main reasons I'm here and not in some other game.

My thoughts on this is that firstly, Hajamin constantly rants about being Cityless is bad.

But...What if the city you joined pretty much shuns your exsistance as nothing more then a faceless nobody? That doesn't prove much RP and drives the player AWAY from wanting to associate with the city, but if they want to stay on a certain side of the playing field that further skews them because now they have to either go Rogue or continue being Actively reminded he's viewed as unimportant and without merit.

Why not then search for a city of commune that will take better care of you. Celest shunning you? Come to Mag and make those waterboys pay. Don't like the taint, consider Seren: they are fanatical, but welcoming to anyone who accepts the way.

What Olan said.

The lone wolves you're talking about are primarily works of fiction, Gwylifar, like Batman or Wolverine or any other of the thousands of testosterone-dripping wish-fulfilling avenging angels/demons that haunt popular culture. IRL, everybody answers to somebody, and suffers for it if he doesn't play nice. Maybe you can slip off to some remote, inaccesible location and hide out like the Unabomber, but just look how he lived.

IRL, "lone wolves" are called outlaws -- a term few people think about, but which means they're living outside the protection of the law, and IRL that's not just a nuisance. When someone comes along and kills you for your stuff because you're a non-entity under the eyes of the local legal system, you stay dead. How in the world are Lusternian rogues inconvenienced more than that?

I don't think you can fairly compare Lusternia to Achaea in a lot of ways. In Achaea, you absolutely didn't need people after you got classed unless you wanted city or guild channels to talk on. From what I hear now about how things have changed, I suppose anyone can get thier autoclass from Certimene and never even have to join any organization.

Lusternia is built around group dynamics. In general, the biggest accomplishments are group efforts, the most powerful skills the ones that you need a nexus to use, etc. etc. It -is- bad to be a rogue, it is supposed to be bad. Why? Cos if you had everyone free to wander around doing whatever they wanted and not having to obey anyone, you turn into Achaea and the staff becomes overwhelmed with idiotic issues that people hand out over pk and stuff instead of doing important things. You'll have people switching class every 2 minutes to see what they can most easily whore, and RP goes down the toilet. Specifically, the RP of organizations with their own goals and ideals, trying to amass power, territory, whatever else they want to do. Ancient empires, outer-planar conquest, all that stuff.

The rogue RP is basically really selfish and self-centered, and if there was no real reason to be part of a group then you're going to throw away everything that makes Lusternia what it uniquely is.

Want to a be a rogue and not suck? Go back to Achaea.

shuns your existance?

first of all, your existance isn't shunned by anyone. You've not been ignored that I've seen, though if an entire city is in the middle of combat, then yes, they might be slow to answer you or miss some comments - not because you're no one, but because you're not the commander of such and such, and everyone is listening to them or swinging at the moment. I've asked a number of times when that was the case that the pages and squires be patient, and gotten to them when I could. You've never come to speak with me or another Marshal or Archon to my knowledge, and thusly have certainly not been turned away.

Which has nothing to do with rogues, since it's a combination of your own and a city's RP, which if you don't like on the whole, you're always free to seek an alternative to.

I think the rogue setup now is fine. "I'm going to live dangerously, outside the protection of your rules, order, and tasty power!" ... "But why aren't I at LEAST this good though?" doesn't make a lot of sense. If you're tough enough to go it alone, the hard way like everyone knows it to be, well, you shouldn't have such an issue with doing it. And what Olan said.

Actually to counter the first one, it's mostly the really high up people that ignore me as a faceless nobody.

Aside from three people really, everyone else that's close to my rank pays attention unless there's a good reason -coughgorgogscough-

I was just using that as an explination as to why Rogue may become a necessity, and it's in the situation that...they want to for example follow the light and celestia, but feel no ties or compulsion or even reason to stay with celest as it leaves them feeling faceless and such.

My opinion at least.

So as a ... what, Page? Squire?... something like a Private, First Class in the RL American Army, you're wondering why the Generals don't take time to talk to you personally whenever you ask? Granted, Lusternia is different from Real Life, in that every character is Somebody Important. I suppose the real PFCs aren't really represented as characters. But anyway, there's that.

Basically, I think the main thing of Lusternia is that we have big organizational conflict. There's alway Stuff To Do. Unlike Achaea where you just kind of hang around until you get bored, go kill someone, get your city made, get class and go rogue until you kill enough people illegally to get shrubbed, and then start an alt.

And, what Olan said. Not just cause I like him, either. But because he is wise.

I've never heard of you or seen you, that I can even recall. Can't really ignore someone that I'm not even aware of. I take the time to speak to anyone who comes to me. What do you expect? I was a nobody too until I took initiative, spoke out when I felt the need to, did things for the city. I haven't held 2 elected positions for no reason. Try saying hello or something sometime.

A lot of new people come and go. Even some that I think I've gotten close to just become inactive fast. Unless you make yourself a steady and known presence through your character's actions, you can't expect to be instantly known and recognized. I don't really see how the normal circumstance of being a new guy would really drive someone to go rogue unless they have totally unreal expectations

Although, as alluded to previously, there are organizational differences. My not-to-be-named original Public Beta-era character went through both the Serenwilde and Celest, jumping in where it looked like I could do good and generally trying to be a Good Citizen ™. I never really got all that much recognition, never got past cityrank1 or gr2. Plus I was visible, saying hi, answering questions, such like.

Upon starting Anumi (who only lived because she was one of those freak "Bet 100 lessons on 24" wins), I joined Magnagora, and the help I was able to provide was well-received, and thus I was motivated to keep helping, do what I could, and generally go around being a model citizen. Same can be said for Glomdoring, who I mainly just joined because they seemed pathetically in need of players, and I wanted free alchemy. I've been well-received for the help and enthusiasm I've given, and thus it's fuelled my doing more for the guild/commune.

This isn't at all to say "Boo hoo, Celest or Serenwilde don't recognize contributions." Just that in my case, they didn't really seem to. And others I've spoken with who either started out in one of those places, or have alts there, seem to say the same thing. Your Mileage May Vary.

To return to the original topic, it still doesn't seem like going "rouge" would be a solution to any of this. If you're not being recognized and lauded for contributing, you're going to ... what... quit and be part of nothing, having no skills and little ability to influence much in the world? Yeah, makes sense to me.

As the old saying goes, clothes make the man. Very few naked people have much influence in society.

Rogues are like terrorists, they have their reasons, but what they do isn't causing much good.