Here is a log of me debating Chade while he simply shuffled mindsets randomly without responding. Scroll to the bottom if you just want the stats. My max ego was 6164, and Chade's was 3138.

4577h, 6164m, 6164e, 10p elrx-
DEBATED CHADE with PETTIFOGGERY against CAUTIOUS 0-1-0 // 0-0-0 NEUTRAL
4577h, 6164m, 6164e, 10p lrx-
EQUILIBRIUM
4577h, 6164m, 6164e, 10p elrx-
DEBATED CHADE with PETTIFOGGERY against PEDANTIC 0-1-1 // 0-0-0 LOSS
4577h, 6164m, 4286e, 10p lrx- <-1878e>
Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
4577h, 6164m, 5379e, 10p lrx- <+1093e>
EQUILIBRIUM
4577h, 6164m, 5379e, 10p elrx-
DEBATED CHADE with PONTIFICATION against CAUTIOUS 1-1-1 // 0-0-0 WIN
***CHADE ISN'T RESPONDING***
4577h, 6164m, 5379e, 10p lrx-
Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
4577h, 6164m, 6164e, 10p lrx- <+785e>
EQUILIBRIUM
4577h, 6164m, 6164e, 10p elrx-
DEBATED CHADE with PASSION against PEDANTIC 2-1-1 // 0-0-0 WIN
4577h, 6164m, 6164e, 10p lrx-
EQUILIBRIUM
4577h, 6164m, 6164e, 10p elrx-
DEBATED CHADE with PONTIFICATION against ANALYTICAL 2-1-2 // 0-0-0 LOSS
***CHADE ISN'T RESPONDING***
4577h, 6164m, 3262e, 10p lrx- <-2902e>
Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
4577h, 6164m, 4699e, 10p lrx- <+1437e>
Chade takes a drink from a coral vial.
4577h, 6164m, 4699e, 10p lrx-
EQUILIBRIUM
4577h, 6164m, 4699e, 10p elrx-
DEBATED CHADE with PONTIFICATION against PEDANTIC 2-2-2 // 0-0-0 NEUTRAL
4577h, 6164m, 4699e, 10p lrx-
Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
4577h, 6164m, 6164e, 10p lrx- <+1465e>
EQUILIBRIUM
4577h, 6164m, 6164e, 10p elrx-
DEBATED CHADE with PASSION against CAUTIOUS 2-2-3 // 0-0-0 LOSS
***CHADE ISN'T RESPONDING***
4577h, 6164m, 2435e, 10p lrx- <-3729e>
A golden light travels down Chade's spine as he chants under his breath, then
suddenly stands taller and with great confidence.
4577h, 6164m, 2435e, 10p lrx-
Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
4577h, 6164m, 3896e, 10p lrx- <+1461e>
You feel your health, mana and ego replenished.
4577h, 6164m, 4321e, 10p lrx- <+425e>
EQUILIBRIUM
4577h, 6164m, 4321e, 10p elrx-
DEBATED CHADE with PONTIFICATION against CAUTIOUS 3-2-3 // 0-0-0 WIN
4577h, 6164m, 4321e, 10p lrx-
Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
4577h, 6164m, 5585e, 10p lrx- <+1264e>
EQUILIBRIUM
4577h, 6164m, 5585e, 10p elrx-
DEBATED CHADE with PONTIFICATION against ANALYTICAL 3-2-4 // 0-0-0 LOSS
***CHADE ISN'T RESPONDING***
4577h, 6164m, 740e, 10p lrx- <-4845e>
You feel your health, mana and ego replenished.
4577h, 6164m, 1165e, 10p lrx- <+425e>
Chade takes a drink from a coral vial.
4577h, 6164m, 1165e, 10p lrx-
A golden light travels down Chade's spine as he chants under his breath, then
suddenly stands taller and with great confidence.
4577h, 6164m, 1165e, 10p lrx-
EQUILIBRIUM
4577h, 6164m, 1165e, 10p elrx-
DEBATED CHADE with PASSION against ANALYTICAL 3-3-4 // 0-0-0 NEUTRAL
4577h, 6164m, 1165e, 10p lrx-
Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
4577h, 6164m, 2380e, 10p lrx- <+1215e>
Chade takes a drink from a coral vial.
4577h, 6164m, 2380e, 10p lrx-
Chade eats a sparkleberry.
4577h, 6164m, 2380e, 10p lrx-
EQUILIBRIUM
4577h, 6164m, 2380e, 10p elrx-
DEBATED CHADE with PONTIFICATION against CAUTIOUS 4-3-4 // 0-0-0 WIN
***CHADE ISN'T RESPONDING***
4577h, 6164m, 2380e, 10p lrx-
Chade takes a drink from a coral vial.
4577h, 6164m, 2380e, 10p lrx-
Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
4577h, 6164m, 3682e, 10p lrx- <+1302e>
You feel your health, mana and ego replenished.
4577h, 6164m, 4107e, 10p lrx- <+425e>
EQUILIBRIUM
4577h, 6164m, 4107e, 10p elrx-
DEBATED CHADE with PETTIFOGGERY against PEDANTIC 4-3-5 // 0-0-0 LOSS
AHH, YOUR FEEBLE RHETORIC HAS FAILED. TRY AGAIN IN TEN MINUTES. =/
4577h, 6164m, 0e, 10p lrx- <-4107e>

-- And here it is from Chade's perspective...

3534h, 3116m, 3138e, 10p elrx-
Melanchthon unscrupulously quibbles about the smallest points in his argument,
bringing up esoteric minutiae to support his radical theories. You can only
blink in astonishment at his mindboggling logic.
3534h, 3116m, 3012e, 10p elrx-
You change your debating mindset to be analytical.
3534h, 3116m, 3012e, 10p elrx-
You change your debating mindset to be pedantic.
3534h, 3116m, 3012e, 10p elrx-
Melanchthon unscrupulously quibbles about the smallest points in his argument,
bringing up esoteric minutiae to support his radical theories. You laugh in his
face and counter every point raised with facts of arcane trivia that deflates
the entire dissertation.
3534h, 3116m, 3012e, 10p elrx-
Melanchthon takes a drink from a coral vial.
3534h, 3116m, 3012e, 10p elrx-
You change your debating mindset to be cautious.
3534h, 3116m, 3012e, 10p elrx-
Melanchthon argues with sweeping authority, buttressing his broad claims with
dogmatic assumptions and justifications. The argument is so preposterous and so
full of holes that you don't know where to begin to dissect it, and before you
realize it your silence has been taken for concession.
3534h, 3116m, 2053e, 10p elrx-mindset analytical
Melanchthon takes a drink from a coral vial.
3534h, 3116m, 2053e, 10p elrx-
You change your debating mindset to be analytical.
3534h, 3116m, 2053e, 10p elrx-
You change your debating mindset to be analytical.
3534h, 3116m, 2053e, 10p elrx-
Melanchthon takes a drink from a coral vial.
3534h, 3116m, 2053e, 10p elrx-
You change your debating mindset to be pedantic.
3534h, 3116m, 2053e, 10p elrx-
Melanchthon passionately presents his case, fervently arguing his points with
emotional appeals. The tempestuous argument overwhelms your careful
preparation, leaving you shocked to the point where you find yourself
capitulating to the emotional demands made in the argument.
3534h, 3116m, 1094e, 10p elrx-
You change your debating mindset to be pedantic.
3534h, 3116m, 1094e, 10p elrx-
You change your debating mindset to be pedantic.
3534h, 3116m, 1094e, 10p elrx-
You change your debating mindset to be analytical.
3534h, 3116m, 1094e, 10p elrx-
Melanchthon argues with sweeping authority, buttressing his broad claims with
dogmatic assumptions and justifications. With great glee, you rip apart his
arguments with brilliant logic, transforming the entire discourse into an
example of absurdity.
3534h, 3116m, 1094e, 10p elrx-
Melanchthon takes a drink from a coral vial.
3534h, 3116m, 1094e, 10p elrx-
You change your debating mindset to be pedantic.
3534h, 3116m, 1094e, 10p elrx-
You take a drink from a coral vial.
Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
3534h, 3116m, 1715e, 10p elrx-
You change your debating mindset to be pedantic.
3534h, 3116m, 1715e, 10p elrx-
Melanchthon argues with sweeping authority, buttressing his broad claims with
dogmatic assumptions and justifications. While you have a hunch that his
argument is baseless, it is so general and broad that you are left spluttering
in confusion.
3534h, 3116m, 1541e, 10p elrx-
Melanchthon takes a drink from a coral vial.
3534h, 3116m, 1541e, 10p elrx-
You change your debating mindset to be cautious.
3534h, 3116m, 1541e, 10p elrx-
Melanchthon takes a drink from a coral vial.
3534h, 3116m, 1541e, 10p elrx-
You change your debating mindset to be cautious.
3534h, 3116m, 1541e, 10p elrx-
You may drink another health, mana, or bromide potion.
3534h, 3116m, 1541e, 10p elrx-
Melanchthon passionately presents his case, fervently arguing his points with
emotional appeals. As temperaments cool, you quietly but firmly expose the
argument as nothing more than a baseless form of emotional blackmail.
3534h, 3116m, 1541e, 10p elrx-
Melanchthon takes a drink from a coral vial.
3534h, 3116m, 1541e, 10p elrx-
You change your debating mindset to be analytical.
3534h, 3116m, 1541e, 10p elrx-
Chanting the ritual of Laetitia, a golden warmth travels down your spine as
your back straightens and your self-confidence grows.
3534h, 3094m, 2036e, 10p lrx-
Melanchthon takes a drink from a coral vial.
3534h, 3094m, 2036e, 10p lrx-
Melanchthon eats a sparkleberry.
3534h, 3094m, 2036e, 10p lrx-
/===========\\
|Equilibrium|
\\===========/
3534h, 3094m, 2036e, 10p elrx-
You change your debating mindset to be cautious.
3534h, 3094m, 2036e, 10p elrx-
Melanchthon argues with sweeping authority, buttressing his broad claims with
dogmatic assumptions and justifications. The argument is so preposterous and so
full of holes that you don't know where to begin to dissect it, and before you
realize it your silence has been taken for concession.
3534h, 3094m, 963e, 10p elrx-
Melanchthon takes a drink from a coral vial.
3534h, 3094m, 963e, 10p elrx-
You change your debating mindset to be analytical.
3534h, 3094m, 963e, 10p elrx-
Melanchthon takes a drink from a coral vial.
3534h, 3094m, 963e, 10p elrx-
Melanchthon argues with sweeping authority, buttressing his broad claims with
dogmatic assumptions and justifications. With great glee, you rip apart his
arguments with brilliant logic, transforming the entire discourse into an
example of absurdity.
3534h, 3094m, 963e, 10p elrx-
You change your debating mindset to be analytical.
3534h, 3094m, 963e, 10p elrx-
Melanchthon eats a sparkleberry.
3534h, 3094m, 963e, 10p elrx-
Melanchthon takes a drink from a coral vial.
3534h, 3094m, 963e, 10p elrx-
You take a drink from a coral vial.
Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
3534h, 3094m, 1680e, 10p elrx-
Chanting the ritual of Laetitia, a golden warmth travels down your spine as
your back straightens and your self-confidence grows.
3534h, 3072m, 2193e, 10p lrx-
3534h, 3072m, 2193e, 10p lrx-
Melanchthon passionately presents his case, fervently arguing his points with
emotional appeals. With absolutely no readily available facts upon which to
analyze the argument, you can only frown and shake your head in frustration,
conceding this emotional outburst to Melanchthon.
3534h, 3072m, 1996e, 10p lrx-
Melanchthon takes a drink from a coral vial.
3534h, 3072m, 1996e, 10p lrx-
3534h, 3072m, 1996e, 10p lrx-
/===========\\
|Equilibrium|
\\===========/
3534h, 3072m, 1996e, 10p elrx-
You change your debating mindset to be analytical.
3534h, 3072m, 1996e, 10p elrx-
Melanchthon eats a sparkleberry.
3534h, 3072m, 1996e, 10p elrx-
You take a drink from a coral vial.
The potion flows down your throat without effect.
3534h, 3072m, 1996e, 10p elrx-
You may drink another health, mana, or bromide potion.
3534h, 3072m, 1996e, 10p elrx-
You change your debating mindset to be cautious.
3534h, 3072m, 1996e, 10p elrx-
* LCP AutoSparkle - ON *
Melanchthon takes a drink from a coral vial.
3534h, 3072m, 1996e, 10p elrx-
You remove 1 sparkleberry, bringing the total in the Rift to 324.
3534h, 3072m, 1996e, 10p elrx-
You eat a sparkleberry.
You feel your health, mana and ego replenished.
3534h, 3072m, 2309e, 10p elrx-
* LCP AutoSipping - ON *
Melanchthon argues with sweeping authority, buttressing his broad claims with
dogmatic assumptions and justifications. The argument is so preposterous and so
full of holes that you don't know where to begin to dissect it, and before you
realize it your silence has been taken for concession.
3534h, 3072m, 1007e, 10p elrx-
You take a drink from a coral vial.
Ah, the soothing bromides help strengthen your ego.
3534h, 3072m, 1717e, 10p elrx-
You change your debating mindset to be cautious.
3534h, 3072m, 1717e, 10p elrx-
Melanchthon takes a drink from a coral vial.
3534h, 3072m, 1717e, 10p elrx-
You change your debating mindset to be cautious.
3534h, 3072m, 1717e, 10p elrx-
Melanchthon eats a sparkleberry.
3534h, 3072m, 1717e, 10p elrx-
You change your debating mindset to be pedantic.
3534h, 3072m, 1717e, 10p elrx-
Melanchthon unscrupulously quibbles about the smallest points in his argument,
bringing up esoteric minutiae to support his radical theories. You laugh in his
face and counter every point raised with facts of arcane trivia that deflates
the entire dissertation.
Face burning red, Melanchthon throws up his hands in exasperation and curses
loudly, obviously too discombobulated to engage in further debate.
After a long pause in you and your interlocutor's dialectic, you lose interest
in the debate and let your mind drift to other things.
3534h, 3072m, 1717e, 10p elrx-

Me:
1st Offensive Loss = -1878 ego, 30.5% max
2nd Offensive Loss = -2902 ego, 47.1% max
3rd Offensive Loss = -3729 ego, 60.5% max
4th Offensive Loss = -4845 ego, 78.6% max
5th Offensive Loss ~ -4107 ego, 100% current

In a control test with Revan, healing to full ego before each loss:

1st Offensive Loss = -1831 ego, 29.7% max
2nd Offensive Loss = -2752 ego, 44.6% max
3rd Offensive Loss = -3790 ego, 61.5% max
4th Offensive Loss = -4584 ego, 73.4% max
5th Offensive Loss = -5523 ego, 89.6% max
6th Offensive Loss ~ -6146 ego, 100% max

Chade:
1st Defensive Loss = -959 ego, 30.6% max
2nd Defensive Loss = -959 ego, 30.6% max
3rd Defensive Loss = -1073 ego, 34.2% max
4th Defensive Loss = -1302 ego, 41.5% max

1st Neutral = -126 ego, 4.0% max
2nd Neutral = -174 ego, 5.5% max
3rd Neutral = -197 ego, 6.3% max

In a control test with Revan passively losing, it took 22 defensive losses for the damage to equal his max ego.

I know all this has been covered before, but it's a glaring inconsistency in the debating system. There are two problems that I see:

1) Offensive losses incur too much of an ego loss.
2) Non-response is the best defense to debating.

The second is especially troubling, because it means an influencer in a sanctuaried room is effectively immune to the one way anyone else has of dislodging them, debate.

The best solution I see is this:

1) Scale offensive loss damage to be on par with defensive loss damage.
2) Once a debate is initiated, limit mindset switching to once per debate attempt made, meaning that if you are not responding, you will be unable to switch your mindset until you do.

I agree entirely, and any other sane person should too. There's no reason that it has to be like this. And that's all I have to say.

Since they seem to love it this way, I think the admin should post to us why it's like this.

Or they could always reverse the damage levels and say that it was a mistake the way it was originally

I like what you are suggesting, though I have a question. Did you try testing both with and against different charismas to see the effect?

I would hope that ego damage is based minorly on % of max, but majorly on a constant amount.

I would add that it might make it more feasible to have offensive loss damage -less- than defensive loss damage. Isn't it more deflating to have yourself persuaded by a debater than to not be able to convince someone else?

I agree wholeheartedly with both of those changes. Let's get those implemented!

I disagree with these changes and here's why!

The advantage in debating should go the person sitting in a sanctuaried room influencing. This is because you can debate someone who in the middle of influencing a denizen, thus they are taking a double whammie. A weak offense is necessary ensure they have a chance.

Or they could divert what they're influencing and it'd be even, they'd be down 500 ego if they aren't the faster eq type.

I've debated denizens and players at the same time and won without chanters, it takes no skill. Plus if you debate out the influencer then when the denizen hits he burns out making the mob uninfluencable for a duration. Generally this isnt a good situation, so diverting the mob is actually better than letting it carry on with the person you're debating.

Unless you don't have divert, of course. But I feel that minor issue is less important than the points Melanchthon already mentioned.

I understand where you are coming from with that, but I think village influencing is set up to reward team effort. If you are alone influencing in a sanctuary, I feel it reasonable to be at a disadvantage. If you have someone else with you, they could debate anyone who might interrupt you, or if that failed, divert the mob off you while you were debating and begin to influence it themselves, and so on.

what factors influence debating? ego? charisma? skill rank in influence? how you look? Just remember, there are novices with enough cityrank participating in sanctuary plus influence. You don't want to turn it into Yet Another situation where trans influence + high level is a requirement to participate in influencing.

I don't think it is a requirement at all for village influencing, but it -should- factor into debating.

You should say that a few times when you're trying to debate at like Adept Influence and someone Trans influence, level 85 walks in. Now i know that being trans influence and high level should mean something, but why would people get involved if they're just going to get debated down to 0 straight away?

you have to remember, the majority of citizenry around right now aren't going to be omni-trans. They're the people we're working with.

I don't think it needs to be as extreme as that. I just think it should play a role.

A related example... You're trying to take a village, you're adept in your primary guildskill, and someone at lvl 85 and trans walks in to fight you. Are you able to stand there doing nothing while they strike at you until they kill themselves from exhaustion? Is the match evenly weighted so it will be an extended battle with each of you equally capable of besting the other?

Luckily enough, influencing isn't like that. because if it was, well, noone would really stick around. Do you have a non-credit character? I created one to see what stuff was like in Lusternia. Its not easy. Heck, she's still only CR1. I started to get more of a feel for combat when fighting as her, with inept lots. It was quite interesting really.

Yeah, they should make combat like that. So village influencing is more fair - totally independent of skills.

I could've sworn debating doesn't depend on skills.

Maybe I'm wrong.

Anyway, my point was to suggest that burning someone out should break sanctuary. After all, crusade allows you a chance to break it - just kill the fellow. The same should be available to sanctuary, but on sanctuary terms. In sanc you can only debate, therefore burning out the fellow who sanc'ed should break sanc, even if it's only for a little while. After all, the fellow can always sanc again.

Although I foresee possible outcry from the Serens and Celestians who do the "Let's put little ones or allies in strategic spots, so we can sit at all the key mobs and practically own most of the village!".

A way to force a Sanctuary to drop is definitely needed. I'd actually take that before a Debating fix.

Whether or not it's intentional, the biggest effect on Debating is just max ego. I wish I had thought to test it as I transed Influence, but I started Debating at Master and it felt the same to me as it does now. If anyone wants to verify the effect of Influence skill on debates, I'd love to see the results.

Agree on all points raised. People sitting there playing defensive in debating is kind of silly.. and is the fact sanctuaried rooms made it impossible to get any of the bigger denizens in Southgard because they just camped out there and you cant break it. I dont see a problem with Sanctuary being a peaceful means of village influencing but fight peace with peace and let debating break it down.

Actually it wouldn't be that bad for Celest, since we would then be able to break the sanctuaries that Magnagora puts up on the demesnes and flood the village entirely.
And also, since no fighting occurs in sanctuary, there's no reason why someone else from another city/commune can't come in and influence the denizen. Of course, there will be debaters and diverters there to fend off influencers, so you'd need your own debaters and diverters as well. I think that was one of the intended purposes to make influencing not so physical and combative?