1. Actually, the point is, to be able to break sanc, and put up crusade. See, once crusade is up, you can kill the person, and put up sanc. But you can't break sanc, to put up crusade. Sanc right now is INVINCIBLE. Is ANYthing supposed to be invincible?

2. You can put sanc back up right away, supposing you lost a debate to someone else's offense, and are not off equi.

3. Serenwilde, Celest and Magnagora have had more time to get established compared to Glomdoring, and therefore have a larger playerbase, and more higher ranking members, and a lot more time to fall into a system which is organized and works. Yes, Glom should have more, but I do believe they should be cut just a little slack as far as numbers are concerned.

I repeat, at the moment, sanctuary is invincible. With no time limit. At the extremely low cost of 1p. It's like an influence version of serpent, except it has no time limit. Not to mention travelling with sanc is much, much better than travelling with serpent. With serpent, when you move, there is a delay before it comes back up. With sanc, the second you move, you can sanc. Not to mention you protect everyone else in the room, so you can move large groups too.

Crusade also costs 1p, but it's much, much riskier and most definitely breakable.

Trueheal is invincible, actually, heh. And no, it's NOT like an influence version of serpent, because you can still be debated (keep in mind I am advocating a debate change here), or have someone else influence there. Including your enemy, if you're not quick enough (You lose eq too!). See, what stops Magnagora from doing the exact same thing? We wouldn't object to it, because we can't just completely stomp your army even if we DO.

But I think our disagreement isn't on the details here, but on the underlying principle. I think combat should be a rarity in village influencing. It's just that Magnagora's turned it into a complete bloodfest, so when sanctuary strips that opportunity and reduces it purely to influence and debate, they get angry. This isn't the situation that should be in evidence in the first place.

Sanctuary and Debate should be an alternative to Crusade and Killing. Both should be equally viable in village influencing.

If you want me to believe it is meant to be peaceful, you'll need to state the reason for believing that, because it's not how it appears to me. To me, it looks as if Combat was at one point the only thing going on in influencing, so sanctuary and debating were introduced to provide an alternative to the people who couldn't compete against fighters. Not a replacement, but a balanced alternative, neither inherently more effective nor less effective.

I don't think that crusade is necessarily made to go with killing, actually. It doesn't seem to dovetail with it in any way other than it prevents sanctuary. It increases the value of influencing (or speeds it up? I forget) done, it doesn't give make combat any more viable than before necessarily. I suspect it's there to prevent sanctuary abuses, rather than as an option for PKers. And even if it WERE "an option for PKers", that implies influencing is the norm anyway. Another thing to consider is that the entire influencing system was originally intended as a way to get people not interested in the extremely high complexity of PK (or investments necessary to take part in at most levels thereof) to be able to have some effect on their surroundings. Sanctuary lets this actually happen, because otherwise they'd just die.

EDIT: Incidentally, if there -was- cause to nerf sanctuary for any reason, the Avenger's protection of the villages would have to be restored, so that the aforementioned people would become less attractive targets when they were just running around doing the very business influencing was designed for.

And if you think about it, the argument that you can take down crusade is mostly academic, because once you set up a crusade (and let's face it, only the side able to completely pwn opposition really does it) you're only going to be there for a little bit, and then moving onto different denizens anyway. Killing the crusader isn't exactly easy when you're vastly outmanned in terms of military strength.

Trueheal also costs 10p and is a trans skill (1700 lessons) ONLY available to the 2 classes in the realms with Sacraments.

Sanctuary costs 1p and and is available to any Tom, Dick and Harry with CR3.

That was one of my arguments.

Nej, we do enjoy combat, but if it isn't necessary, why put ourselves at risk? We're not asking for it to be a bloodbath. I do believe you have a prejudiced perception of Magnagora in that aspect. Not all Magnagorans want war. Those of us who are used to combat don't mind dying for the city, it's part of the Magnagoran resume. Yet we do NOT enjoy seeing our citymates die. Especially if they are little ones for whom dying is especially hard.

What irks us, is that sanctuary is no longer used to merely invoke peace, it is used to basically put "RESERVED" signs on mobs, with 0.0001% chance of cancellation (IF, by some unforeseen, unthinkable chance the sanc'er leaves his post).

I do use sanctuary myself, to save myself, or my team from giant groups of Serens and Celest intent upon the demise of lone or small groups of Mags or Gloms, giant groups which you would see if you stepped out of your sanc'ed corner. Mags aren't the only ones with huge groups out for the blood of the weak and the separated. Celest and Serenwilde are equally guilty of that. You can say "Oh, Magnagora started it first" but that does NOT change the fact that they are doing it. Murdering someone because they murdered or MIGHT have a chance of murdering your brother does not make it any less of a murder.

What we're asking for, is balance. If there is a chance to break crusade, there should be a chance to break sanctuary. We're asking for it on sanctuary terms, and not for much, just the chance to create a tiny timeslip, a small opportunity for the reservation to be cancelled so the table can be free for all.

Not to mention it gives debate another aspect of usefulness.

But you can have war over like...anything else. You can raid, you can use the planes (Gods know we've been told "you're SUPPOSED to be PKed on the planes" often enough), you can do combat in all sorts of places and at all sorts of times, but that's not what village influencing is for. Influencing is so people who DON'T want to fight can get more involved in the direct actions of their community.

And actually, I'm USUALLY part of the groups that do that, when they do. Which is rarer than you're trying to make out. All that says is that I'm not biased in saying sanctuary is fine, surely. I'm not saying combat needs a bigger part in things (which is what being able to break sanctuary would do)
But what do you mean it puts a giant reserved sign on it? No it doesn't. It's not like sanctuary stops you influencing. At all. Several times in Southgard, for example, Xenthos and Melanchthon walked in and influenced Kegan or whatever the hell the guy I was standing at's name was because Celestians were too slow to get there even though I told them to. Hell, you can just sit there if you want and still beat me to it. If we're talking about numbers, why don't we list the number of Magnagoran influencers who have divert compared to everyone else, which makes us either find an un-busy person with divert (note, this is a lot more difficult than it sounds, since at a given time not many people in Serenwilde will have it, sometimes it takes me like 10 minutes to get hold of a diverter, so if it was a key denizen the enemy already got it) or just give up on getting that mobile? Sure, we could "get more," but you've already said that doesn't apply to this, right?

If debating the person would break the sanctuary, then debating shouldn't be fixed, so you still have a "chance", but not a really high one that ends up with people dying and whatnot anyway. But debating is much more screwed up than sanctuary is, so doesn't it make sense to fix that instead?

The real problem with sanctuary is not it being used to hold important mobs. The problem is it being used to make demesnes unbreakable.

Right, so let realitycheck and forcetaint/forest/flood go through sanctuary. Problem solved.

Making sanctuaries undemesne a room (as if it had been forced) would be preferable.

I'm not sure if it makes any difference, but whatever works.

Just because you want it to be peaceful does not mean influencing as a whole was MEANT to be peaceful (unless I'm missing something again).

Alright Nej, then just indulge me.

WHY do you sit at a mob, sanctuaried?

So basically you want anyone who can sanctuary to be able to break demesnes in open villages, for only one power too.........

The reason I say it was meant to be peaceful is very different from the fact I want it to be peaceful.

The reason I sit at a mob sanctuaried?
If Celest is influencing, then it's because it's something I can do to stop A) The Celestians influencing being killed, and 2) (EDIT: Stupid B )) The denizen being kicked or whatever so no one else can influence them. (Another obnoxious tactic I don't particularly like, but have to accept because I have a fairly good counter for.)

If Serenwilde is influencing, then because I'm waiting for some Celestian/Seren to come keep the room sanctuaried so I and my comrades can do the same thing (influence without being pwned).

Mainly? Demesne paranoia coupled with Ixion/Daevos/Murphy almost-unstoppable instakills eliminating our entire influencing population.

No, make it only break the demesne in THAT room. I realise it'd take some fiddling in game mechanics for that to work, but it could. For example, make it only break the demesne if it's on an edge. That would stop the unbreakable demesnes problem.

Giving everyone a skill to break demesnes is a big change.

Why is there a problem with making realitycheck and force-environment go through sanctuary? Nothing else is needed.

Edit: Except for the main topic of this thread, fixing debating, of course. I meant in terms of sanctuary/crusade.

I resent that comment! i have no instakills, only high damage from pulp....which I don't DO in group combat anymore, I prefer crush.

personally i find it frustrating to see people camping with sanc up, i've even caught a fair few of them who are bloody AFK, i sit there and poke them and talk to them, no answer till 5 mins later, which is rediculous

Well, obviously that won't instakill me, but it'll probably instakill some of our younger ones who are trying to help out. I was exaggerating, fine. Anyway, nevermind that comment, it wasn't the real point, heh.

And the AFK is rather ridiculous, haven't heard of that. But that's a separate issue.

EDIT: Come to think of it, it's to your advantage if they're AFK, you can just steal the denizen from them. Or debate them to oblivion so they can't influence it even when it does come around. Hah!

Why does it matter though? The person sitting there doesn't have any more of an advantage than anyone else who wanders in, except neither of them can kill each other.

The only effect on the influence effort in general is that the denizen can't be killed out of spite from a losing organization.

Which is among the things that some want to be able to do easier, thus the poor attempts to argue for a change.

None of the wandering denizens were killed in Southgard when they pledged to Celest, as far as I know. And none of them were protected by sanctuaries.

Edit: And the reason we got Kegan a few times was due to Celest just not being very competent. We had... 3 influencers the entire time, with a brief period of four. That's not enough to sit in rooms waiting for the denizen to become available again, we had to keep moving and grabbing whatever we could whenever we could.

We did a pretty good job at that, held it to a standstill for a long time. But with the sheer number of little guys you have holding sanctuaries at the named denizens, it was hard for us to get any further than that. Maybe that's the way it should be... but it is extremely frustrating to be working that hard and watching Celest just piddling away their extremely large number of influencers. Until Aesyra came, they had nobody willing to leave those rooms and work on the roaming denizens, really... glance into sanctuaries and they're all sitting hiding inside.

I'd prefer SOME way that that counts against the organization... reward someone for working on all the denizens instead of just camping out at the big ones. Maybe give them all equal voice in which way the village swings... so if one side has all the miners/sentries they get the village, as those heavily outnumber the number of named.