Jadryga2005-06-25 06:46:45
1) Certain skills working in and certain skills not working in... meh. I'd rather it be all or nothing. But that's me.
2) When the denizen repops it's open. I don't know if it stays influenced while it's dead, but well, that means even if we kill it, you still have the upper hand.
3) You're removed from the influencing effort. PROVIDING you're an influencer, and not a doorstop or an umbrella. If you are anything but an influencer, burn out doesn't matter one whit. If you take a look at all the sanc-holders, you'll see that maybe only 1-2 are influencers. Influencers are usually on the move, from mob to mob, not sitting at one.
Case study #1: Nejii was a doorstop/umbrella for Celest in Southgard. He was not supposed to influence, because Celest wanted it. Burning him out did absolutely nothing. It did not take him out of the influencing effort, because well, he was not influencing. Rafael was influencing, and for most part, he was on the move from mob to mob, running when I sanc'ed and began debating him, until he decided to settle down to sanc in Southgard Silver Station. That was the only time burning a sanc'er out made a difference. But then, it wasn't much of a difference, as the other influencers like Aesyra were on the move, influencing other mobs. At first, she also ran when we began to debate her. After all that debating, including Nejii, Rafael and a bunch of other little Celestian sanc'ers, we'd taken out.... ONE influencer. For 10 minutes. In a battle that can last hours.
Case study #2: The other time when Serenwilde wanted... Stewartsville, I think it was, Aesyra was a sanc'er. Burning her out did absolutely nothing, because she wasn't influencing in the first place.
There were others, I can't remember all the details. I know we debated others like Joan, Myndaen, Mitcawelo and others while they were sanc'ing. Burning them out did absolutely nothing, because well, they weren't influencing, were they?
2) When the denizen repops it's open. I don't know if it stays influenced while it's dead, but well, that means even if we kill it, you still have the upper hand.
3) You're removed from the influencing effort. PROVIDING you're an influencer, and not a doorstop or an umbrella. If you are anything but an influencer, burn out doesn't matter one whit. If you take a look at all the sanc-holders, you'll see that maybe only 1-2 are influencers. Influencers are usually on the move, from mob to mob, not sitting at one.
Case study #1: Nejii was a doorstop/umbrella for Celest in Southgard. He was not supposed to influence, because Celest wanted it. Burning him out did absolutely nothing. It did not take him out of the influencing effort, because well, he was not influencing. Rafael was influencing, and for most part, he was on the move from mob to mob, running when I sanc'ed and began debating him, until he decided to settle down to sanc in Southgard Silver Station. That was the only time burning a sanc'er out made a difference. But then, it wasn't much of a difference, as the other influencers like Aesyra were on the move, influencing other mobs. At first, she also ran when we began to debate her. After all that debating, including Nejii, Rafael and a bunch of other little Celestian sanc'ers, we'd taken out.... ONE influencer. For 10 minutes. In a battle that can last hours.
Case study #2: The other time when Serenwilde wanted... Stewartsville, I think it was, Aesyra was a sanc'er. Burning her out did absolutely nothing, because she wasn't influencing in the first place.
There were others, I can't remember all the details. I know we debated others like Joan, Myndaen, Mitcawelo and others while they were sanc'ing. Burning them out did absolutely nothing, because well, they weren't influencing, were they?
Shiri2005-06-25 06:50:00
QUOTE(Jadryga @ Jun 25 2005, 07:46 AM)
1) Certain skills working in and certain skills not working in... meh. I'd rather it be all or nothing. But that's me.
2) When the denizen repops it's open. I don't know if it stays influenced while it's dead, but well, that means even if we kill it, you still have the upper hand.
3) You're removed from the influencing effort. PROVIDING you're an influencer, and not a doorstop or an umbrella. If you are anything but an influencer, burn out doesn't matter one whit. If you take a look at all the sanc-holders, you'll see that maybe only 1-2 are influencers. Influencers are usually on the move, from mob to mob, not sitting at one.
Case study #1: Nejii was a doorstop/umbrella for Celest in Southgard. He was not supposed to influence, because Celest wanted it. Burning him out did absolutely nothing. It did not take him out of the influencing effort, because well, he was not influencing. Rafael was influencing, and for most part, he was on the move from mob to mob, running when I sanc'ed and began debating him, until he decided to settle down to sanc in Southgard Silver Station. That was the only time burning a sanc'er out made a difference. But then, it wasn't much of a difference, as the other influencers like Aesyra were on the move, influencing other mobs. At first, she also ran when we began to debate her. After all that debating, including Nejii, Rafael and a bunch of otherr little Celestian sanc'ers, we'd taken out.... ONE influencer. For 10 minutes. In a battle that can last hours.
Case study #2: The other time when Serenwilde wanted... Stewartsville, I think it was, Aesyra was a sanc'er. Burning her out did absolutely nothing, because she wasn't influencing in the first place.
There were others, I can't remember all the details. I know we debated others like Joan, Myndaen, Mitcawelo and others while they were sanc'ing. Burning them out did absolutely nothing, because well, they weren't influencing, were they?
2) When the denizen repops it's open. I don't know if it stays influenced while it's dead, but well, that means even if we kill it, you still have the upper hand.
3) You're removed from the influencing effort. PROVIDING you're an influencer, and not a doorstop or an umbrella. If you are anything but an influencer, burn out doesn't matter one whit. If you take a look at all the sanc-holders, you'll see that maybe only 1-2 are influencers. Influencers are usually on the move, from mob to mob, not sitting at one.
Case study #1: Nejii was a doorstop/umbrella for Celest in Southgard. He was not supposed to influence, because Celest wanted it. Burning him out did absolutely nothing. It did not take him out of the influencing effort, because well, he was not influencing. Rafael was influencing, and for most part, he was on the move from mob to mob, running when I sanc'ed and began debating him, until he decided to settle down to sanc in Southgard Silver Station. That was the only time burning a sanc'er out made a difference. But then, it wasn't much of a difference, as the other influencers like Aesyra were on the move, influencing other mobs. At first, she also ran when we began to debate her. After all that debating, including Nejii, Rafael and a bunch of otherr little Celestian sanc'ers, we'd taken out.... ONE influencer. For 10 minutes. In a battle that can last hours.
Case study #2: The other time when Serenwilde wanted... Stewartsville, I think it was, Aesyra was a sanc'er. Burning her out did absolutely nothing, because she wasn't influencing in the first place.
There were others, I can't remember all the details. I know we debated others like Joan, Myndaen, Mitcawelo and others while they were sanc'ing. Burning them out did absolutely nothing, because well, they weren't influencing, were they?
144392
Actually, that's not strictly true. People kept trying to burn me out, but even if they had succeeded, it would have achieved that I couldn't burn THEM out in turn when another denizen was pounding on them. If Chade had succeeded in burning out Galvadore, even if Galvadore was a doorstop, then Galvadore could not have moved on to dust off Richter in combination with Kegan the Helpful Southgardian Dwarf and then gotten someone to influence him for Celest.
Sylphas2005-06-25 06:59:26
Elryn, while I agree with that, you do realize that the more like combat you make influencing, the less it's going to be useful for people who don't fight? Because the second you need a system for influencing is the second that people without a fighting system can't influence.
Morik2005-06-25 07:18:44
QUOTE(Jadryga @ Jun 25 2005, 01:05 PM)
We're asking for an effective way of dealing with both sides, in case you missed the point.
There is an effective way of dealing with crusade.
There is no effective way of dealing with sanctuary.
Crusade requires combat tactics, as you said. So why should sanctuary not require any tactics?
There is an effective way of dealing with crusade.
There is no effective way of dealing with sanctuary.
Crusade requires combat tactics, as you said. So why should sanctuary not require any tactics?
144345
Sanctuary requires tactics. The tactic when fighting us is this: Our manpower will be spread thin across sanctuaries. Your manpower will not be. Our heavy hitting influencers will be spending most of our time flittering between denizen or stuck, as what happens in a lot of cases, holding sanctuaries. Your heavy hitting influencers are much, much more mobile. If you came in, debated all the mobile influencers and turned them into sanctuary holders, guess what we're down? mobile influencers. Guess what that gives you? I dunno. A winning hand, if you play it right. Do you know /why/ Stewartsville took so long? Because Magnagora /was/ close to kicking our asses. You had all of the loose wandering denizens influenced. You occasionally came in and succeeding in influencing a named denizen or two, which basically meant we never had enough of a lead. All you had to do was debate down the major influencers and they're out for far longer than any death would bring them out.
Xenthos2005-06-25 07:23:03
I'm still interested in why you ranted at me, Morik, when I was saying I didn't have a problem with influencing in the first place.
Jadryga2005-06-25 07:31:45
QUOTE(Sylphas @ Jun 25 2005, 02:59 PM)
Elryn, while I agree with that, you do realize that the more like combat you make influencing, the less it's going to be useful for people who don't fight? Because the second you need a system for influencing is the second that people without a fighting system can't influence.
144396
You're saying that it's fair for someone to not prepare or work at all, and be as effective as someone who has, for the cost of CR3 and a measly 1p?
It's not about making influence like combat, it's about making it fair in the sense that effort needs to be put in to achieve the goal.
Bashing is not combat-oriented (as in PK), but you do have to prepare, and work for your levels.
Questing is not combat-oriented either, but you also have to work for the rewards.
Even Bardic or Artisanals requires preparation and effort.
I don't understand why pacifists should be able to fend off combatants and be quasi-invincible, simply for using 1p and sitting in one spot.
It doesn't take much to learn to debate. I only learned to properly (kinda) do so before Southgard, I don't have a system for it, and I'm not great at it, but I CAN debate somewhat. I'm not a great combatant either, I've never bought otherworldly credits and I don't use Thorgal or anyone's readymade systems so whatever I do curing-wise, as inept as it may be, is self-learnt. Probably why I die lots, but ah well. It's part of the job description.
And yes, Nejii, but see, you weren't influencing. That is my point. If you were burnt out, you'd have no use there, except as a doorstop or umbrella. Now that is another point we could use for dropping sanc. If you sit there, you have a chance of burning out our influencers while they're being ego-pounded by a mob, and we can't do anything about it, since we can't amissio or leech you, laetitia is now limited and we can't divert or debate you either. Which makes you a very powerful weapon, since if the influencer is influencing a mob, chances are, they can't debate you back, and mindsets need equi to change.
And a point, which for some reason never occurred to me until now. Even if you do get burnt out and subsequently die, when you conglutinate, you come back with FULL ego. Hah.
Shiri2005-06-25 07:35:57
QUOTE(Jadryga @ Jun 25 2005, 08:31 AM)
And yes, Nejii, but see, you weren't influencing. That is my point. If you were burnt out, you'd have no use there, except as a doorstop or umbrella. Now that is another point we could use for dropping sanc. If you sit there, you have a chance of burning out our influencers while they're being ego-pounded by a mob, and we can't do anything about it, since we can't amissio or leech you, laetitia is now limited and we can't divert or debate you either. Which makes you a very powerful weapon, since if the influencer is influencing a mob, chances are, they can't debate you back, and mindsets need equi to change.
144411
No, that's not a point at all. You debate me -before- that, obviously. Laetitia also isn't limited enough that you can't use it to keep someone from basically indefinitely resisting debate.
Sylphas2005-06-25 07:36:00
If influencing becomes just like combat, it's useless as a choice for non-combatants. It SHOULD be simpler.
Cwin2005-06-25 07:36:36
Huh? Stewartsville was Serenwilde for a good while actualy, debate wise. Seren took over the entire mansion and only had trouble in the fields because of the demesne put up there (and the fact that they could attack someone in sanc). After that came Fain worldburnings, which REALY made things all blah.
None of that will happen again though. You can't be hit by Demensnes while in sanc, worldburn is out and you won't need so much of a lead as the battle drags on.
Probably the root of all this comes down to this: Is influencing a place where killing has little power or where it has equal power to pacivists? If it's the former, then things should stay close to how they are now, since sanc effectivly stops an attack (making Crusade more of a gambler's choice). If the latter, then getting debated out should remove sanc, which means a sort of war between people knocking others out of Crusade areas long enough to Sanc and people debating others out in order to Crusade. A few other balances can slip in too, probably.
In all honesty, I'd take either side realy, but we realy need a dead-set idea on the answer to that question: everything else hinges on that.
None of that will happen again though. You can't be hit by Demensnes while in sanc, worldburn is out and you won't need so much of a lead as the battle drags on.
Probably the root of all this comes down to this: Is influencing a place where killing has little power or where it has equal power to pacivists? If it's the former, then things should stay close to how they are now, since sanc effectivly stops an attack (making Crusade more of a gambler's choice). If the latter, then getting debated out should remove sanc, which means a sort of war between people knocking others out of Crusade areas long enough to Sanc and people debating others out in order to Crusade. A few other balances can slip in too, probably.
In all honesty, I'd take either side realy, but we realy need a dead-set idea on the answer to that question: everything else hinges on that.
Jadryga2005-06-25 07:43:37
QUOTE(morik @ Jun 25 2005, 03:18 PM)
Sanctuary requires tactics. The tactic when fighting us is this: Our manpower will be spread thin across sanctuaries. Your manpower will not be. Our heavy hitting influencers will be spending most of our time flittering between denizen or stuck, as what happens in a lot of cases, holding sanctuaries. Your heavy hitting influencers are much, much more mobile. If you came in, debated all the mobile influencers and turned them into sanctuary holders, guess what we're down? mobile influencers. Guess what that gives you? I dunno. A winning hand, if you play it right. Do you know /why/ Stewartsville took so long? Because Magnagora /was/ close to kicking our asses. You had all of the loose wandering denizens influenced. You occasionally came in and succeeding in influencing a named denizen or two, which basically meant we never had enough of a lead. All you had to do was debate down the major influencers and they're out for far longer than any death would bring them out.
144406
Nothing stopped Serenwilde from killing the loose denizens who were influenced by Mag. Doing that would have taken our neck-to-neck status, and rammed it into the mud considerably. There WAS a group running around killing people. Amaru was flanked by a huge bunch of Serens. A lot of times, I only escaped death by sanctuarying, during which Amaru would call me a sanctuary whore. Very ironic. Also, if our manpower was concentrated, we would not be able to get all the denizens at once, because as you(?) claim, our fighters are our influencers, and would be targetted. Your "manpower", which you say is spread thin, only means that most of your little ones, with yes, probably the occasional combatant or two, are spread thin. There was still enough manpower leftover for a huge assassination group.
Narsrim2005-06-25 07:45:14
QUOTE(Jadryga @ Jun 25 2005, 03:43 AM)
Nothing stopped Serenwilde from killing the loose denizens who were influenced by Mag.
144416
Actually something did: Roleplay. You don't murder people to decrease their number in a village because it favors you in the influencing system, that's meta-gaming.
Jadryga2005-06-25 07:46:54
QUOTE(Shiri @ Jun 25 2005, 03:35 PM)
No, that's not a point at all. You debate me -before- that, obviously. Laetitia also isn't limited enough that you can't use it to keep someone from basically indefinitely resisting debate.
144413
We've tested it and we practise lots. You can still lose fairly quickly, especially if you're offensive and hit the wrong mindset, and they deal you a good blow to your mindset.
Also, with debate the way it currently is, if I debate you BEFORE I influence, you can beat me with pure defense, by simply changing mindsets, offering me the wonderful chance of burning myself out.
Elryn2005-06-25 07:54:37
Getting debated out removes your ability to influence for a good while.
Getting debated out does not affect your ability to engage in combat in the slightest. Getting killed does not affect your ability to engage in combat or influence beyond around 20 seconds.
Things are balanced as they are now. We don't need to make fighting the be all and end all of village influencing again. Fix debating and demesne holding for sure, but stop whinging about having to adopt influence-based tactics in influencing.
Getting debated out does not affect your ability to engage in combat in the slightest. Getting killed does not affect your ability to engage in combat or influence beyond around 20 seconds.
Things are balanced as they are now. We don't need to make fighting the be all and end all of village influencing again. Fix debating and demesne holding for sure, but stop whinging about having to adopt influence-based tactics in influencing.
Jadryga2005-06-25 07:55:53
QUOTE(Narsrim @ Jun 25 2005, 03:45 PM)
Actually something did: Roleplay. You don't murder people to decrease their number in a village because it favors you in the influencing system, that's meta-gaming.
144417
Na, drug them and force them to be your slaves, or kill them so you can enslave their corpses to work for you so things are in your favor, of course.
Magnagora is partly, a city of undead. To those of us who practise necromancy, death is an inevitable part of life, and a step to the revered state of undead. Therefore by killing them we're honoring Urlach, Master of Death, and allowing them to aid us in death and their rebirth, as in their current live state, they are useless to us. Magnagora sees it as a tactic. If Serenwilde's roleplay prevents them from doing so, tough luck. But if you want RP justification, there you go.
Although... in that case, wouldn't the roleplay go against raiding and killing innocent villagers whom the big bad Mags have taken control of? There was that controversy once, I don't remember it too well, it was quite long ago, back when you and Tuek were raiding Angkrag for dwarves on a regular basis, and you said you were saving your fellow brethren, who were enslaved by the Taint, or something... you were still a dwarf then. Then if I remember right, once or twice during the times we defended successfully, you'd raid Dairuchi, and I remember thinking, there goes THAT roleplay justification.
Jadryga2005-06-25 08:03:04
QUOTE(Elryn @ Jun 25 2005, 03:54 PM)
Getting debated out removes your ability to influence for a good while.
Getting debated out does not affect your ability to engage in combat in the slightest. Getting killed does not affect your ability to engage in combat or influence beyond around 20 seconds.
Things are balanced as they are now. We don't need to make fighting the be all and end all of village influencing again. Fix debating and demesne holding for sure, but stop whinging about having to adopt influence-based tactics in influencing.
Getting debated out does not affect your ability to engage in combat in the slightest. Getting killed does not affect your ability to engage in combat or influence beyond around 20 seconds.
Things are balanced as they are now. We don't need to make fighting the be all and end all of village influencing again. Fix debating and demesne holding for sure, but stop whinging about having to adopt influence-based tactics in influencing.
144422
Getting burnt out does not affect your combat. At all. It doesn't even affect your ability to sanc or crusade.
Getting killed takes you completely out of the village, at least, until you redef (optional) and teleport or walk back in. BUT. Getting killed is also insta-curing of shattered ego, at the price of the measly token experience lost during conglutination. Like you said, 20 seconds. No more shattered ego.
We're not asking for a bloodbath, we're asking for sanctuary to have a weakness, like everything else. Right now, I don't see any, besides the fact that you can't move freely, and you can't perform aggressive acts. But then, if you sanc'ed, chances are you don't WANT to perform aggressive acts, and you can move, and sanc immediately.
Narsrim2005-06-25 08:08:27
QUOTE(Jadryga @ Jun 25 2005, 03:55 AM)
Na, drug them and force them to be your slaves, or kill them so you can enslave their corpses to work for you so things are in your favor, of course.
Magnagora is partly, a city of undead. To those of us who practise necromancy, death is an inevitable part of life, and a step to the revered state of undead. Therefore by killing them we're honoring Urlach, Master of Death, and allowing them to aid us in death and their rebirth, as in their current live state, they are useless to us. Magnagora sees it as a tactic. If Serenwilde's roleplay prevents them from doing so, tough luck. But if you want RP justification, there you go.
Magnagora is partly, a city of undead. To those of us who practise necromancy, death is an inevitable part of life, and a step to the revered state of undead. Therefore by killing them we're honoring Urlach, Master of Death, and allowing them to aid us in death and their rebirth, as in their current live state, they are useless to us. Magnagora sees it as a tactic. If Serenwilde's roleplay prevents them from doing so, tough luck. But if you want RP justification, there you go.
144423
It saddens me when people who are complete and utter meta-gamers try and bs a roleplay answer for everything... when they in fact never roleplayed it....
------
First and foremost, I want to see where you have raised any of these slain villagers as undead. If you will kindly provide a log of some in-game RP situation where this has happened, I might buy you story. I can assure that you are lying through your teeth making this up as you go and have no such log. Simply beause you can make something up does not mean it constitutes IC roleplay. It never happened IC. Therefore, it isn't going to cut it as an answer.
Jadryga2005-06-25 08:10:36
Refer to modified post in reply to your earlier one.
Narsrim2005-06-25 08:13:09
QUOTE(Jadryga @ Jun 25 2005, 03:55 AM)
Then if I remember right, once or twice during the times we defended successfully, you'd raid Dairuchi, and I remember thinking, there goes THAT roleplay justification.
144423
Tuek and I were attempting to slay guards. Those stupid dracnari, loyal to Magnagora, attacked us because we were invading their turf. I was simply defending myself.
Shiri2005-06-25 08:16:40
QUOTE(Jadryga @ Jun 25 2005, 08:46 AM)
We've tested it and we practise lots. You can still lose fairly quickly, especially if you're offensive and hit the wrong mindset, and they deal you a good blow to your mindset.
Also, with debate the way it currently is, if I debate you BEFORE I influence, you can beat me with pure defense, by simply changing mindsets, offering me the wonderful chance of burning myself out.
Also, with debate the way it currently is, if I debate you BEFORE I influence, you can beat me with pure defense, by simply changing mindsets, offering me the wonderful chance of burning myself out.
144418
Look, are you saying debating needs to be changed, OR sanctuary needs to be changed? You can't bring up an example of how debating is now as an argument for sanctuary needing changing, because I think debating should be changed too.
Jadryga2005-06-25 08:40:11
So you killed innocents who were defending their turf, since they saw you as a threat, not surprising since you were trying to kill the guards who were supposed to protect the village, when you could have run, and left them to live?
