With my recent Glomdoring troubles, I've rejoined a group that is enemied to all the communes in existence. This has caused me no small amount of trouble procuring refills, above and beyond the trouble a lot of people have. As a result, I've been thinking at length about the matter of procuring refills/enchantments. I admit that my perspective is somewhat biased, as this issue affects me directly, but I believe that there is an economic issue here beyond my self-interests.

As it stands, there is an inordinately small number of people who fill vials. This is a very bad thing™ because vials are easily the most crucial element of fighting, as well as bashing. Things become even more difficult for people who are enemies of one or both communes, as the pool shrinks ever smaller. There is a similar situation with enchantment for the communes, though it's less intense in its absence(and for that matter its importance). A black market would normally step in to fulfill these needs, but there are too few people who refill/enchant to make it work.

Getting enemied to both communes is a relatively unlikely event, given that you're either Pro-Celest/Serenwilde or Pro-Magnagora/Glomdoring. Yet the flaw in this assumption is that it reinforces the division of "Good vs Bad" and keeps alliances and loyalties completely basic. There is no room for a pro-Serenwilde druid who would just as soon kill a Mag as a Celestian in order to further the Seren, nor a pro-Celest Mage who would kill Serens and Gloms to strengthen the Light.

I think that the Alchemy and Enchantment skillsets should be equally available to both cities and communes. In terms of roleplay, it seems reasonable enough. Alchemy is just the mixing of certain herbs and reagents, whereas enchantment is the imbuing of an item with power. Changes would need to be made to Enchantment to allow LowMagic to give access to Mercy/Perfection/etc, but that's a trivial matter.

Thoughts?

Uh, no. Duh - this has been discussed at length already, and I'm fairly sure Estarra has expressed why this wont happen.

You dug your own hole in getting enemied to these places, making it difficult for you to procur those items you desire to have. If you cannot Dig yourself out, that's too bad, but reality.

No, I have no problem getting them, infact anyone I know has no problems. You burned all your bridges by city hoping and screwing over the last people you were with as you go. The alchemy for communes and enchants for cities is completely balanced and has no need of a change as it currently stands.

Got to love Bricriu's unforgiving bluntness, I love her.

Why thank you, darlin.

Well that's good, but the reason I made this post is because I've seen a number of people, Celestians and others, comment on the difficulty of getting refills.. Many of whom aren't even in the same boat I am.

Oh noez. Teh Cerestinz be havin' problems getting teh refills! Teh system shouldz eb changed 2 soot tehm betterz!

I'm going to say this in the nicest way I can - tough cookies, now harden the up, princess.

Get someone else who isn't enemied to get refills for you.

i am enemied to damn near everything, and i have 0 problem getting enchantments or refills, you just gotta know who to be nice to and who not to. its REALLY not that hard.

Hmmm, perhaps that was not the nicest way I could say that, but I still stand behind it.

There is no longer an alchemy monopoly - and there was NEVER an enchantment monopoly. Unless you make a total fool of yourself as a character, you can get refills from Serenwilders, Glomdoringers, Rowena, I believe, still does them, albeit that is more expensive. Granted that you've only been a bit of an ass, you can usually go to various shops in cities and manses for vials, as well.

In fact, unless you are the biggest jerk of the entire game, you can usually get someone who is not hated to get you your refills, perhaps for a small fee, perhaps just as a favour.

Those who cannot do any of the above, even one, have dug their own grave and most likely deserve it.

If the goal is to make your life easier, it sounds great.

If the goal is to create an actual, viable economy, is sounds lousy.

An economy is what you have when there's a major imbalance in the distribution of goods and/or services. The greater the imbalance, the greater the interdependence and the more interpersonal interaction becomes necessary.

Forced specialization allows meaningful role-play to take place without constantly concocting trumped-up epic tragedies. It encourages players to socialize with each other when they might otherwise be out going it solo on the endless Treadmill-o-Power ™.

But what the heck. Let's let communes and cities both have each.

And why are we limiting trade skills by archetype, anyway? How totally unrealistic is it to see knights forging their own armor?

While we're at it, get rid of this pesky "one trade skill" limit. I wanna make jewelry... and cook... and forge... and harvest... and enchant... and...

Wait. I come here to socialize, not to make all my friends feel superfluous. I like my cozy little aslaran empire, where I spend as much time and energy bolstering my friends in their efforts to learn talents that I can't mimic as I do developing talents of my own.

Instant gratification is overrated. Learning to work around limitations is fun and interesting.

You're unique in your situation, in that (in the game, no playa hatin'!) everyone hates your character.

We'll try an analogy. Let say California breaks off from the U.S. They've pissed off Alaska, and you got enemied to the Middle East anyway.

Where do you get your oil?

You don't, sucka.

...hey, -I- found it to be an amusing analogy.

But, a bit more on topic, forest-type people can make the odd, herbal potions, and city people can use the advanced magic. Maybe, just maybe, (and I doubt this) someday, distantly, maybe... they'll implement another skillset for each. Giving forest blessings or something to items, and having high-tech concoction machines.

But hey, if we made everyone equal, how boring would that be?

My personal enemy status is not the entire barrier at this point. I can (and do) get other people to refill for me. That doesn't negate the issue at hand, which is forced roles and lack of availability.



Evidently my respect for you was misplaced.



While the sarcasm in the rest of your post was completely unnecessary, I think you make a good point here. It is important to require interdependence, which is why I'm all for a 1 tradeskill limit. What I don't agree with is forced organisational interdependence.

Forcing alliances(by route of player->non-loyal organisation(s) dependence) only contributes to static roles and limited diversity. A couple of posts here have eluded to "being the same would be boring", and I agree. However, by virtue of necessity, the current system mandates friendly relations with groups you would not otherwise be friendly to. And that doesn't even begin to address the limited availability of refillers in general.

Silly bear, I have mentioned on several occasions that I'm not exactly worried about that, and never have been. I'm an opinionated, sarcastic, and at times, very blunt person. However, that last post was made in a more silly frame of mind, if you did not notice my stolen blurb about 'princess', and the noobspeak.

My point still stands, however. The fact a few people are not able to get refills/enchantments as easily as another, due to their own actions, is not reason enough to try and have something like this implemented. It only rewards their past behaviour, while punishing those who have not acted in such a manner - it would not only harm trade, but skills and statistics of races themselves.

Plus, as has been said already...when everyone has ALL the same skills, ALL the same ideals, and ALL the same intents...

Well, Lusternia will be pretty damn boring.

You bring up an interesting point, with forced organisational interdependence. People in every country of the world can make the same things. My earlier analogy was somewhat off, maybe, because it used natural resources.

Would it be boring if everyone could do everything? If I could make potions, and everyone else could forge?

I would go with yes...

I would go with yes, as well.

While being handed a check for 500 dollars every week for doing NOTHING would certainly be easy, and convenient..

Well, I have to say I would lose all my pride, knowing I had not earned that money in working hard and doing a good job. And even worse, I'd be ashamed in knowing that others are having to work harder to make up for it, while on receiving the same check, or perhaps, less.

A challenge makes things fun - and gives you more reason to be proud of what you have done.

I've never had trouble buying from Magnagora as a Seren, and I've only very small trouble buying from Celest as a Glomdorian. About the only thing I can't do is get enchantments from the Celestines because (as I'm told) Amaru tell them not to sell to Ebonguard, but that's ok.

I like how getting yourself enemied to the wrong places can make your life harder and not just means yet another place you can't go to where you wouldn't go to anyway and another entry on a list. Granted, it's annoying to those who don't have the influence/friends/money to get wares from the black market, but then again those people usually don't get themselves enemied to everyone either, or if they did were asking to. Generalisation, I know, but I think it applies in most cases.

Plus, it simply doesn't make sense for the communes to get enchantments as a skill or cities alchemy, as they lack the basic requirements for it, amongst others.

The matter of my being enemied is tangential to the topic. It's merely what prompted me to examine the situation.



This is a slippery slope argument, and in this case I think it holds little water. It's not as though alchemy would be *given* to everyone, it'd simply be an option.

In addition, Alchemy/Enchantment are, mechanics wise, one of only differences between commune/city. Each organisation forges, each organisation tailors, each organisation has a pet class, a demesne class, and a knight class. The difference, mechanically, is Alchemy/Enchantment(and to a lesser degree Wicca vs Cosmic).

In terms of impact, the alteration I proposed would result in: more readily available refills/enchants(suppliers go up, demand unchanged), lower prices(as a result of competition), and less time spent trying to locate someone to fulfill your needs, since there will be more of them and you can look to your city/commune for assistance(as applicable).



The current structure supports that, but it would make sense with a bit of alteration. Enchantment could become a subset of either type of Magic(High or Low), and Alchemy would be the same thing it is already - physically mixing them. As near as I can tell, the only reason nature is a requirement is to limit it to certain archetypes.. It's not an inherently nature-oriented skill. (Based on the alembic messages and the way alchemy works, as an ex-Alchemist).

I'll concede that it's possible there is an RP-based bond between Alchemy and Nature that I never really saw.

Did I tell you today that i love you bric?

damn fine work! Harden up all round