On the issue of availability: This is not a failing of the system, this is a failing of the players in the system. Right now, there is a larger demand for alchemists than there is supply. This /should/ encourage people to take alchemy, or be more active filling for others if they are alchemists. There's a lot of gold to be made, especially with people like Vis willing to pay extra. And alchemists make good money without that. We've had enough honest alchemists post and say they make good money to counter the people who insist that its not possible.

Yes, it is sometimes a pain to find a refiller or a suitable enchanter...tough life, no cookies. I sometimes curse for not getting my enchantments because the only enchanters available are either my enemies or just not skilled enough.
Well, then wait. One of Lusternia's major problems is that the people have no patience at all. When you don't get your precious refills today then maybe tomorrow, just learn to be patient. By the way, this goes for everything else here too, including the development of Glomdoring. Be more patient, let things develop, don't want everything at once.

I think it's just laziness. There's always someone to do something for you, I know. I've had serenwilders in the Merchant's Guild for twenty years.

Mind if I play the newbie and ask something?

What if the communes end up hating the cities and/or the other way around. That would mean the communes would have little access to enchantments while cities would have a hard time getting potions (among other things for both sides, of course).

Would they be able to survive that way? I ask because there's alot of flak going around for the cities and communes (Celest/Seren, Glom/Mag) being so close and not hating each other. If they did, though would the two sides be able to survive without the other's tools?

If they can't, wouldn't that mean a Commune vs City battle is just about unfeasable at this point (Who would want to slit their own throat?)?

I don't know enough to answer those questions, but they are worries of mine. I'm sure as anything NOT saying that the cities should be making potions or the communes should use alchemy.

I'm just wondering if it's even possible for one group to even survive without the others?

Actually there's nothing but alchemy/enchantment a commune/city can't produce on its own.



Chances of survival are slim. The black market might grow and help a bit, but if Seren and Glom suddenly banned all cities from potions there'd be serious problems.



Yes



At this point, not really.. And that's my biggest gripe.

Now the ultimate question: how DO you deal with it?

Personaly, I think an org (growing tired of saying 'city/commune') should be able to bearly survive on it's own using JUST the skills their guild knows.

However, to grow into a fullly stable org, they'll need resources from another willing org. It'll give the orgs a reason to work together.

But..

To become a truly powerful group, the org should need resources at the expense of the others.

To take Celest's example, all by themselves, they would have enough nexus power IF they severly rationed, would have..slowly.. enough comms for some trade, and people would be able to level up to 50 easily, up to 70 rather ok, but forget past that (Astral would be much too hard).

Alchemy, given willingly from Seren, along with friendly hands in need would mean just about how it does now: Easier village influencing, which means more ways to level, more comms, no more heavy rationing of power, ext.

However, to be able to destroy their foes, end the raids caused by enemies, and to be able to conduct true improvements to their city and guilds, they'll need to steal Fae, ransack the forests, and grab every village, leaving Serenwilde under their boot. An Alchemy ban at that time should mean little to nothing then and it'll take stopping the Fae raids and reclaimign the villages to truly weaken Celest's power.

Essentualy, make it possible to live alone, a Very Good Idea to work together, and always tempt them with Real Ultimate Power at the expense of their allies, always knowing they could be "Much better than that if it wern't for that other group".

Empathy, Greed, and Logic will take care of the rest. All the gods would have to do is make sure a group with Real Ultimate Power can't truly take on ALL THREE of the others alone.

Well... Suhnaye's an Alchemist and charges just a little above the herb prices for the potions he makes...

Since he doesn't refill too often for the general public, he just refills when he needs money, which is seldom if ever...

The thing is, if you made citys able to use alchemy, there would be a flood of alchemists, now, Visaeris' argument (or part of it) is that by having more alchemists, everyone would be able to get their fills, and the prices would go down...

Wrong

The first thing that would happen is the new alchemists would learn the joy of keeping massive numbers of herbs with them at all times... Then they'd learn that in order to refill, they have to pay for herbs, which is what sets the potion prices... Then suddenly, The herbs would dry up... And voila, Herb prices sky rocket, in turn, alchemy becomes so expensive, that people start prefering going to rowena for her prices, which (again) makes it so its damn near impossible to get the refills you want, thereby completely negating the whole point.

It's still rather lame that Rowena exists .

Which is why the cities shouldn't get alchemy. However, I guess I'm mostly worried about them: how WOULD they survive if they had no access to potions, say because Seren and Glom decide to hate cities completely?

Can a person live about as well with only city enchantments and skills as a commune can with only the nature ones?

It's pretty obvious the necessity of alchemy is much larger than for enchantments, it's very, very annoying not having enchantments, but it's impossible to play the game without alchemy.

For those who think cities getting alchemy would completely obliterate the economy, how much have you noticed Glomdoring affecting it? I haven't seen prices change much. Then again, most of the time I don't pay at all, heh.

Say "nation". It works.

ObOnTopic: A little while after posting this, Visaeris in IRC mentioned how long it took him to get refills. It took me at least twice as long. Clearly, the "problem" is nothing to do with citizenships and enemy status, just that people are used to services being more available than they are. Demand doesn't lead to supply as it ought, because underpricing is too easy, in turn because the cost of doing business is too low compared to the income you can get by doing other things like bashing.

About the only thing I see we really need here (other than Rowena to stop doing refills as she was supposed to once Glomdoring opened -- what's with that?) is a better way for alchemists to take advantage of shops. With vials still considerably more expensive than most of the things you put in them, refills still have to be done in person. Lots of mechanisms could make it possible for the refill trade to be able to work in shops, any one of which would do the trick.

Ummm... Hello? *waves for attention*

Ranked 169th last I checked, but I don't believe I've even once used a potion for anything but proofing other peoples' robes.

Gosh, I'm a weirdo. This is twice in as many days I raise my hand as the exception to some universal rule.

You don't use bromides or health? Then I think you must be one of the extremely rare people who doesn't bash or influence -at all- but gets their levels from questing.

Revise Thorgal's statement to "90% of people cannot play the game without potions" then.

Maybe add a buyable npc for your shop that allows you to stock refills? Sort of like a personal Rowena.. You'd store the herbs and set the price for each elixir combination and then people could come in and have the npc fill for 'em?

Edit: I'd still rather see alchemy/enchantments more widespread.. I'm not sure shops would fix the problem we're seeing. Mitigate it some, possibly. But fix, unlikely.

So... what's the role of alchemist in that?
I buy npc, herbs, and that's it, alchemists out of business.

Wait, you probably mean that only alchemists could get that npc. But I don't like the idea anyway, seems like a very artificial solution somehow.

Correct



I agree, I'm just tossing out ideas.

If the problem is the cost of making the vial, why not just make gems easier to obtain. Then the price will drop, making it more viable to sell in shops.

Still, that won't make alchemy more of a 'person to person' job, since it's always cheaper to just refill than rebuy the vial.

It also won't change the main topic. If Celest bothers Seren then the potion (and herbs too I think, isn't herbalism a Commune thing as well?) supply goes to almost nothing anyway.

Perhaps instead of trying to 'even the skills out' between them, perhaps Enchantment, when mixed with the guild skills the cities have, should make it possible for them to live without potions (not live well.. definatly no Astral hunting, or great PKing, but survive, yes).

I think the last form I saw this proposed in was that the alchemist brews stuff up and puts it in a keg that he leaves in his shop that does refills. Sort of like the self-fill drink station at the Burger King, with a coin-op slot. Kind of silly, but cute.

Personally I prefer a simpler mechanism where you can sell empty vials to a shop, if the shopkeeper has set a price for them. (Let the shopkeeper say N gp per month, for any vial good for over X months.) Then just let them come by, fill them, and sell them again every so often.

If everyone ends up hating everyone, and we get a massive potion ban, you can be sure I'll be there, selling potions under the table, at prices that would make me smile.

I think there will always be people willing to sell you something.

Viva la underground!