The alliance doesn't really bother me as it does a lot of other Magnagorans. The tides come and go, and so does the power of a city/commune wax and wane. Celest is enjoying a bit of power right now, and good for them. They probably deserve it after the constant ass-kickings we've given them since the beginning of the game. Magnagora always impresses me with the dedication and adaptability of its players, and I've no doubt that we'll be seeing this conflict get more interesting as we adapt to the current ESA situation.

That said, there are four things that I do see as unfortunate in all of this:

1. The 'cemented' alliances. Magnadoring v. Celenwilde is arguably one of the most unoriginal and boring things I've seen in Lusternia. I hate, hate, hate it. Just about the only thing that I like about Achaea over Lusternia is that alliances there have a more fluid nature than here due to the existence of more grey-area. Sure, Shallam isn't going to ally with Ashtan or Mhaldor, but there are a slew of other cities that could ally with either, and Ashtan and Mhaldor aren't necessarily allied either. Fluid politics like that are really great, static politics quickly stagnate and become dull.

2. The current attitudes of certain Serenwilders. When I hear a shout and think to myself, "Oh god, what is Celest moaning about now?" and then look closer and see its a Serenwilder that is spouting the "Taint is evil! Taint must die! Go Light *cough* I mean Forest!" (a slight exaggeration on my part, but not by much), I want to just log off right there. It's revolting. Granted, these are a vocal minority, but they *are* vocal, and they do hold some power in Seren. I'm not suggesting that Seren needs a leader like Nikua who is the other extreme, and I think Gregori does a fairly good job of staying neutral, but there's some people in Serenwilde (who I won't name) that I just want to strangle and tell to go join Celest.

3. Lisaera. The fact that she is rabidly anti-Taint is really disappointing, and is a factor that helps to cement the current political situation. To a lesser extent, Fain is a similar problem with his anti-Elfen feelings. I say Fain is lesser because Fain just hates everyone, and Fain is far less active in Magnagora than Lisaera is in the Serenwilde. I yearn for the days when Auseklis was Patron. Since the day she arrived, she has always struck me as a leafy version of Terentia (though, of course, I couldn't label her so easily since Terentia wasn't around back then). Granted this is highly oversimplifying her views, but a more "I hate Fain!" stance would have been welcome over the very overdone "I hate Taint!" one.

4. The Taint. The history of Lusternia was one of the things that drew me here, and what I saw of the Taint led me to hope that it would be a very controversial issue with a lot of "gray area" for debate and intrigue. At opening, the game managed to capture this really well. However, it has since evolved into a scenario where "Taint" has become a synonym for "Evil". This brings us back to Point 1 and fluid politics. If the Taint is the incarnation of "evil" (which I don't believe there is a historical precedent to establish that), then Lusternian politics are always going to be really limited. Part of the problem is that the Light equates to a very traditional personification of the forces of "Good." I don't think this necessarily makes the Taint its "evil" counterpart, but a lot of people do look at it that way out of a natural desire to see the counterpart to the "good" Light as an "evil" force of some kind. I have been trying, in IC conversations, to establish that the Taint isn't just a personification of "evil," but rather a complex and diverse force that cannot be so simply labeled. These conversations provide a level of enjoyment for me in the challenge of it, but ultimately it is a near-impossible task. One of the things I really enjoyed about the early days was the edginess of the Light: it wasn't necessarily a force for good and could do a lot of evil. Erion's fae incident was a great example of this. Since then, however, both sides have been guilty of falling into a traditional good v. evil stereotype.

Now... this rant has gotten inordinately long and my original 2 points have turned into 4. Time to go do some productive for a change. At least that's off my chest. 

I agree with Nok on a number of things. What I see going on though is more akin to the schoolyard bully(Magnagora) being turned on by those it has bullied (Celest/Serenwilde). I would love Celest to move more to its "everything must follow the Light" RP instead of this constant snuggle Serenwilde attitude they have. I have no problem with an alliance of circumstance, but it bothers me that Serenwilde members and patronage keep trying to force an alliance with one breath and then say that they would rather not have one in the other.

As for Taint = evil, I agree with this sentiment too. I think Taint has been turned into the personification of Evil and that Serenwilde has been more corrupted by the Light than they are willing to admit. Whether this is good RP or not is the real question. IC, Serenwilde members would never admit to being brought to the Light, but OOC anyone who says this is not the case is needing a shake of their head. I have ranted to various people about the fact I hate the role the Serenwilde is constantly being forced into of morally righteous, and this is as much Divinely forced as anything.

Celest's Patrons perhaps should be pushing more towards Celest converting people to the Light or going on holy crusades and then we can work more towards a diverse RP all around.

With that said, I think Magnagoran players need to stfu and stop their constant "change your rp" , "oh wait we don't like how you changed your rp, change it to something else." RP is and always will be dynamic. However, some basis of it will be static and 100 years of social engineering by the Great Spirits, Tutors, and rememberance of history is where that static comes from.

Now I have been accused numerous times of wanting to snuggle Celest. Nothing is further from the truth, but as I said alliances of circumstance are bound to happen.

The enemies of my enemies are my friends, but the enemies of my enemies are not necesarrily my allies.

Hope this made sense, hungover and over tired doesn't a good post make.

I may be misunderstanding out of tiredness, but Serenwilde -is- about opposing taint. It was set up that way, the actions of modern day organizations have reinforced it, and it makes sense. Its not exclusively a Light philosophy to oppose Taint.

I would actually like to see the 'philosophy of the Light' fleshed out a little more. Developed in such a way that it is at odds to Serenwilde's values, or something that Serenwilde can take advantage of to hurt Celest and empower itself.

That is the key to keeping Celest and Serenwilde distinct, the philosophy of the Light. They will always share the opposition to taint, so something additional is needed in that area.  Or maybe even some conflict between the supernals and spirits.

I don't know enough about Glomdoring/Magnagora's relationship to comment on what would keep them distinct.

I may be misunderstanding out of tiredness, but Serenwilde -is- about opposing taint. It was set up that way, the actions of modern day organizations have reinforced it, and it makes sense. Its not exclusively a Light philosophy to oppose Taint.

I would actually like to see the 'philosophy of the Light' fleshed out a little more. Developed in such a way that it is at odds to Serenwilde's values, or something that Serenwilde can take advantage of to hurt Celest and empower itself.

That is the key to keeping Celest and Serenwilde distinct, the philosophy of the Light. They will always share the opposition to taint, so something additional is needed in that area.  Or maybe even some conflict between the supernals and spirits.

I don't know enough about Glomdoring/Magnagora's relationship to comment on what would keep them distinct.

In both cases, the Taint is a tool. Just because you and a person you know both own a hammer does not mean that you will be friends, as a metaphor. Both are distinct, and their philosophies are pretty diverse.

This would be great to see explored more. Referred to what I said earlier, I think that the Light is a pretty bland personification of a traditionalist view of "Good." For it to be explored further and have more diversity and uniqueness would add a new level of intrigue to both the overall political situation (not necessarily the current one), and to differentiate Celest from other stereotypical "good" organizations.

I would like to see Celest do more to shape out their RP as more of a unique force and Serenwilde do more to see Celest as just as much of a problem to Nature as the Taint. Static politics do get very boring.

I don't think they'll ever be a force against Nature as much as the taint has the potential to be, but they can be a BIG problem to Serenwilde itself. Amping the bad-nature angle will be rather artificial and difficult to sustain.

I haven't liked it ever since Serenwilde began its descent toward this ESA.

I don't think Glomdoring is poorly played out. As I've listed several times in the past Glomdoring tried to stay to the tradition of Communes being mainly anti-city but what choice do we have really? Serenwilde and Celest both constantly attacking us in anyway they can I mean what were we supposed to do give the only people willing to defend a newly born community the finger also? Glomdoring opened with plenty of potential to add alot of diversity to things but as I said Serenwilde and Celest were already jammed so close together that it was instantly a Taint vs Anti-taint situation. But as I've said I lost alot of my hope for things soon as Serenwilde began to scream Anti-Taint instead of just plain out neutrality. I realise the Taint is dangerous to nature but so is the Light and it was just to easy for Serenwilde to slip into Celest mold. I dont know what will happen in the future if as Nokreaenom said that Lisaera will stop with her rapid foaming at the mouth anti-taint mentality and allow Serenwilde to explore the fact Celest is dangerous also, or if Celest will change into something more interesting than just 'We're The Good Guys' and go something more interested like a crusading rapidly religious faction that sees even Serenwilde as unbelievers who must 'convert or die.' Personally I just hope politics change in some way before it becomes so choking that no one wants to even bother.

You know how badly you get crucified in Serenwilde for suggested we break things off with Celest? At the best, we're stepping on other people's freedom of association or whatever the hell they call it, at worst, we're trying to force Serenwilde into being enemies with the rest of the Basin, with the implication that we're almost traitorous.