If you want to qoute post son qoute the WHOLE thing, I was clearly referring to recent events, not what happened years ago in the past. Magnagora has focused all its energy on Celest for quite awhile now and didn't do much of anything as far as active raiding while their pact with Celest was up. So Yes it has been a long time since Magnagora actively sought up Serenwilde outside of a village situation.

I think you'll find that there is at least one time where a Commune has been explicitly told that blindly following its Fae/Avatars is not always the best thing to do, Akraasiel.

I will assume you were asleep every time Magnagorans were on Ethereal raiding Faethorn for the last month.

Which GLomdoring did not do, they sought up pacts and alliance with Serenwilde, not blind violence. It was Serenwilde who struck long before Glomdoring did. We asked for understanding as Communes, Serenwilde are the ones who constantly say they can see no middle ground.

Okay, I'll post the whole thing.

You're STILL wrong!

Interesting, the admins put in place what we base our RP off of, then they turn around and tell us we should ignore that basis, despite the fact that historically at least the Communes have always valued and listened to their Spirits and Avatars.

So which is it, do we form an RP based on what is provided to us, or do we say "meh, who cares what those things over there tell us, they never were very useful to us. Oh wait... they did however teach us... everything we know."

No I mentioned that quite clearly. But their motives NOW are driven by politics to convince Glom that they're the people they need to be actively seeking out for protection. Since Celest and Serenwilde are constantly raiding us.

I think you should realise what the Divine provide you is really only a starting point or loose outline to work from. They obviously cant say Heres a commune do everything yourself! They provide you a bit of an outline and let you pretty much go from there, thats why IRE is so much fun because you dont HAVE to follow what is provided. You can even cast off your Patron if they oppose what you think should be happening, Celest did it. You can do whatever you want to do as a community as long as you got the COMMUNITY supporting it. Even most Divine will follow what the community wants if enough pressure is applied.

Can we cease with the 'You did this!', 'Because you did that first!', 'But you did this even before that!'?

I don't think this topic is intended to discuss the blame behind alliances/actions of the various organizations against each other. There are dozens of other threads where accusations like that are thrown back and forth.

Right so let's go over what Lusternia provides us to work with loosely.

1) Racial intolerance
2) Religious zealotry
3) Diamatrically opposed belief structures

So then it is now bad RP to RP within those paramaters and be racially intolerant, a religious zealot, and follow the diametrically opposed belief structure. Then to top it all off, when we don't follow those parameters, i.e ESA we are again badly rping.

You don't get your cake and eat it too. No matter how good it looks.

Never said you had to oppose it, just saying its always an option.

No offense Nok but ....

Blah blah blah

Everyone, go play the game and quit trying to analyze it and you might just have more fun. Instead of worrying about everyone else's organizations worry about your own. Make your OWN the best that it can be, focus on your OWN RP and maybe, just maybe, we'll have this dynamic rp world or something we're all striving for or whining about, whichever case it is. Repeated times I've heard this arguement about who's rp should be what and it's getting redundant and boring. I honestly don't even know who is doing it 'right' and don't really care.

In other words,
Everyone go figure out your own RP and stop trying to figure out your neighbor's RP for them.

no offense rhayni, people post on the forums because they like to. I can't walk over to Gregori IC and go hey, look, you remember all this stuff? And this other stuff? Well my good pal Murphy tells me one time you told him and...





after decades of mudstomping, Celest got to become a kingdom and we've, days out of it, got petitions for people to get various things "fleshed out more" so we go right after Serenwilde and screw ourselves.

the Light has a bunch of interpreters and a few different ways that the citizens look at it, but it isn't exactly an entirely nebulous notion. Why take issue with the concept that it's a "sterotypical" good in its setup? Yes it's "good." Love, justice, hope, and wisdom, yes, the aim was positive. It is entirely plausible, over the course of history, that characters can see it in shades, whether or not the fundamentally positive setup is there. The citizenry can be made up of zealots like Erion who don't interpret the ideas well and go "the ends justify the means" on us, it's happened plenty. But, there are a good deal of sane people working to keep the populace reasonable -now-. Think about it. Magnagora has obliterated a good deal and gotten a sour response from a number of people so thoroughly that many took nothing from IC enjoyment and there was a huge burnout. Since all the varied betrayals have happened, and in Celest the betrayer story gets significantly less sympathy since everyone had gotten so fed up with spies and traitors a good number of years back. I mean, imagine coming from Celest in the constant siege days and getting handed the "interesting corruption and betrayal" story. Many thought to themselves "great, so get on the other side already, we're working on bleeding in one direction right now." It's getting a lot more stable, -thankfully,- and by and large the city is not in a hurry to blast that to smithereens after decades of searching for that stability. Give us a little while!

going after Serenwilde now would be a harpoon in the foot for absolutely no reason. Nature worked with Light to clean the basin ages ago (even though many perhaps consoled themsleves with thoughts that the Light was better), and now Magnagora is finally getting attacked.

and people are talking about it like we're on easy street all of a sudden...

people walk everywhere with serpent still impervious to most counterattacks, and the most experienced largely means "Mag" in the conflict of Celest vs Magnagora. Some of Mag's people are getting pretty scary IC . When Maelon first came to the world, the established crazy warrior Murphy crushed him in one hit (and accidentally to boot). Now he gets death threats from him and challenges. I mean, I'm not a newbie anymore, but as was said, the Paladins aren't quite the scourge of the Ur'Guard yet. But we're getting better. Alger still walks all over our villages, if his serpent doesn't work then his lich will and all he has to do is keep shooting 30 power at us and we're in a constant frenzy, etc etc. It's honestly an ordeal to put down one of Ixion's (first common one that comes to mind) gatekeepers when one of Mag's awesome Ur'Guard can go it alone, guard him and wait for help to arrive while getting nailed by 3 moderate Celestians without much worry. So seriously, I wouldn't hold your breath to be surprized that Celest is latching like a dragon turtle onto stability right now. This seems to me a pretty reasonably predictable course of action for at least a while to come.

I think Nok was just commenting on how Lusternia was becoming Taint vs Non-Taint when there are so many other conflicts that could and should happen such as City vs Commune, and merely trying to start a dialogue amonst peers. And correct me if I am wrong, but the Tainted Fae event had nothing to do with Magnagora being tainted and everything to do with Cosmic energy and Ethereal energy not mixing. Had Celest been used instead of Magnagora I am sure the same resulted would have happened, they just wouldnt have been called tainted fae.

In regards to what Shikari said. Gwyllgi and Lhiannan might be all like Die! Serenwilde Die!, but GLomdoring can still feel that way as they and Serenwilde kill Elohora because she wants to destroy the ethereal plane. Just because they are working together doesnt mean they hate each other any less.

The intent of this thread was never to discuss ways to pry apart the ESA alliance. I tried to make it clear from the outset that this discussion is about the landscape that the politics occur in, not the current politics themself. I'm glad to see that Celest is starting to turn around, OOCly, and this is an OOC discussion. Some people will continue to spout IC propaganda here, but let's do our best to keep the discussion on track.

My concern is the prevalence of Taint v. non-Taint conflict since the arrival of Glomdoring. I'm not interested in who's "beating" the other communities in this discussion, I'm only interested in how things could be adapted to ensure that political options remain fluid without huge breaks in established RP.

When we talk about exploring the concept of the Light more and seeing it shift away from the traditionalist concept of "good", we're not talking about nerfing Celest or trying to ensure that Magnagora reigns supreme. I'm talking about adding a uniqueness to Celest that makes it different from the "Shallam of Lusternia" in order to both help define Celest more, and to add a new level of diversity to roleplay interactions and politics in the Basin. What I'm not trying to suggest is that the Light should be changed to burn down all forests and slay everyone in Serenwilde. This discussion is completely OOC and has no bearing on my IC beliefs or actions. I just don't want to see Lusternia fall so easily into the overdone and stereotyped Good v. Evil conflict. I think the design team and the players here are really capable of something far greater.

you don't need to worry so much about my taking this IC or "spouting propaganda."

my points were relevant to the political landscape discussion -because- I was explaining where the search for stability, and the adherence to a more "sterotypical," if you will, concept of good will come from. Over time, it's just as possible to have zealots and elitism reign supreme, it's been balanced now because of the factors that did in fact contribute from the landscape (which is continually developing) into current politics.

my point was that current politics are not necessarily indicative of an ultimate trend of the landscape. Celest isn't "fixed" by its design into a "sterotypical good" role, but will be more apt to it at the moment "because of..."

I wasn't trying to push any secret Celestian agenda here

even more editing: I also think there's a lot more uniqueness in Celest's philosophies and ideas than some realize. The city has had everything from peace demonstrations and civil disobedience to calls for armed revolution against the infidels unto their destruction. This might say something for the fact that, given our playerbase, the landscape does not so simply call for static politics as some people may be inclined to believe, though the city might appear more traditional at the moment.

I can go ahead and confirm this, since I was the first person to actually see Crow after closed alpha

On an unrelated note, I agree.. Celest needs to start playing up the "evil" side of the Light.. We need more people with Visaeris' and (I think)Rafael's attitudes.(Though Raf should learn where to draw the line between Fanaticism and "YOU DO NOT DO THAT".. Specifically when it comes to attacking the city's loyals and such . Admittedly my knowledge of Rafael's IC persona is semi-limited beyond being rabidly antiTaint)

Gregori, I you. Your last post in this thread just made things click, and I now have a superstructure around which I can flesh out Vis' newer views. Woo!

Rhayni, act mature, trust me you don't sound smart with all this smart-alec BS you're posting, be nice, it's having the opposite effect entirely.

And Gregori, don't make me laugh about Serenwilde being the forest without mercy, I would like to see Serenwilde do anything on its own.

Maelon, I have to say, your post actually made me laugh, in a good, non-insulting way.
It was funny, I enjoyed it

hehe I agree with Maelon, I dont blame Celest for trying ot relish a bit of stability I just think he was misinterpreting what people were saying. No one is asking Celest to nerf itself, only to take on a unique persona. Far as I'm concerned I'd much rather see Celest be able to atleast half defend itself than be like it has been and completely overrun.


Edit: And also nice post Eiru. Really no one is impressed by the heavily attituded post where we want to flame people or act like knowitalls. This is all OOC discussion and thus people should check their attitudes at the door. Just because you don't agree or have an opposing opinion doesn't mean launch in slander.

Without reading everything in the thread (I'm tired), I'd like to add if it has not been said that I feel Serenwilde was forced to ally with Celest due to Magnagora's actions with Glomdoring.

Since the beginning, the primary force that successfully irritated and damaged Serenwilde was Magnagora. Fain wanted this (I was in His Order, I know this as a fact) by having the Moon Avatars slain and Crow restored. During the Viravain event, Magnagora, not those who wanted to join Glomdoring, slew any Serens in Glomdoring. Since then, Magnagora has helped Glomdoring get villages. When those villages were raided by Serens, Magnagorans have rushed to the rescue (Rockholm, for example). The list goes on and on.

Until this all started, Serenwilde did not truly favor Celest over Magnagora. However, Magnagora pressed, annoyed, and simply pissed off Serenwilde (at times even leaving Celest alone) over-and-over. When they turned their attention back to Celest, Serenwilde was still pissed and decided to get some revenge. Truly, the number one factor in Serenwilde allying with Celest has been Magnagora itself since Daevos became the leader. Chade had managed to have -extremely- positive relations with Serenwilde... it has been done.