By that same token it's Serenwilde and Celest fault Glom had to depend on Magnagora's aid and thus made ties with them all the more possible and logical. At this point Glomdoring is fighting the world with only the ability to hope Magnagora comes to aid, as no official alliance has been made. Even often leaders in Glom shunned people who ask Mag to come help, Viravain herself told us not to ask and her hatred for Fain is well known. I just think its silly when people try to drag on Glom for being with Mag when we gave it our best shot not to rush to Mags side.

I think you're right, but people use that less to make a point that Glomdoring shouldn't be doing it, and more that the people that complain about Serenwilde-Celest are hypocritical.

Not really, Celest didn't provide that much support when Serenwilde attemtped to crush Magnagora. It is true, however, that Glomdoring is extremely weak. I supposed that pressed them to seek outside help, but it was truly more to disaster than benefit, heh.

Ah, Maelon. You said a buncha stuff well. I'd snuggle you if you weren't a man. Now...

Disclaimer: I may go onto say some absolutely ridiculous sounding and totally blanket things here that people may or may not like. Caveat emptor or some crap.

So ya. People talk about this whole taint/light/nature thing and what it's really about, how it's played out. I find it slightly ridiculous how vehement some people are against the idea that that's actually good/bad/nuetral, when it so clearly is. Like, so clear that if it was a window and I was a bird, I would have killed myself flying into it not even noticing it's existence. Yay for not being a bird today.

In the beginning that worked out slightly better, though again nobody wanted to admit the moral side of stuff. It was mostly Mag vs. Celest and Seren being a sort of wild card that could go either way, and basically sort of stood back and did. For a while I didn't trust them cos my attitute was "well gee, they don't give a crap about anything other than their business, they're happy to watch us kill each other and keep selling everyone potions".

Problem was, ya, that good/bad/neutral thing still persisted underneath. I started a new character actually wanting to be viscanti, thinking that it'd be cool to be all demonic, but then I realized, wait.. that's not gonna work in the city of "light" and I don't want to RP being a dickhead or having people hate me. nevermind. Apparently lots of folks did want to RP the "I'm a total jerk who just wants to rape and pillage stuff" kinda char, and figured "ooh, undead and darkness, that works" Mag did quickly become the schoolyard bully stereotype, and when they got done taking Celest's milk money they figured "hmm, who's left to pick on now.. ooh, maybe there's more wussy kids in that forest..."

As far as what we're given to work with, and what the Admins say.. well.. ya. I had a friend who was serenguard in the beginning of open beta, and he told me that all Auseklis ever did was come by and say "No! Bad Seren, you're not doing anything right! *spankspank* You don't listen to me, dammit." But he'd never actually do anything or tell them what to do besides hate cities.. and then eventually only one of the cities made itself truly hate-able. Celest has had that too, where all the Celestines and even some others zealously stick to the Supernals and RP only off of that, not allowing much room for dynamism there. After talks with Hajamin, I've shifted my belief to "ok, that's a great start and foundation, but once the direction has been pointed, I've got to walk the road myself and see what happens". It's screwy... cos things like people rejecting Lacostian and then stuff about Terentia has made some people even think "wow, screw the gods, they're nuts. I'm sticking to my good, solid mob-based belief. Mobs never lie or show inconsistency."

Glom... meh.. Capitol meh. As far as I can see, it only came into existence when it did cos there were enough losers who couldn't get along with any of the 3 orgs around at the time, and to provide Mag with potions. Once it actually became a valid choice for new players, there opened up some potential for any real distinction or meaning, but the way things were there was no chance for them unless they had stuff handed to them, like a village or 2 and help from their big tainted daddy as long as they'd lay back and spread wide so he could suck on the alembic. Mmmm, sweet sweet glombaby, magdaddy loves you. Just remember to never ever tell mommy. To be fair and take the highly disturbing though further, I guess Celest and SW are like cousins that are attracted to each other, but won't outright admit it, but you just know cos of how much time they spend together, duh. Occasianally you'll even catch them making out behind the barn or something, with their shirts off or whatever, and you'll shake your head and wag your finger, but it's ok, really, as long as they don't make babies.

I heard Daevos complain once that it was always pretty much 2 on 1 and never any real 3-way. Probably because it happened to be "Celenwilde" vs. Mag at the time, and he figured Mag alone could thrash anyone 1-on-1. (Snuggles to whoever coined Celenwilde, even if you are a man) Once again, please don't time-travel murder me, Daevos. Just to be safe I'm going to say that I'm moving to next door and last week and then not actually do it.
Anywho, ya. It was kinda destined to be 2 on 2, sadly or not. Some find that this throws their concept of RP out the window and they resent it. If you keep your RP fluid, it shouldn't matter that much. Are the communes going to auto-hate Halifax and Gaudiguch cos they're cities? Lame. Will Celest only work with them if they're not tainted, also likely and trite. But we'll see. At first I didn't give a damn about much anyone other than Celest, but I've let my philosophy spread to "hey, if you're not tainted, you're ok, you don't have to be foaming at the mouth for the light". I get Serens who are like "well, you guys are ok for city-slickers, but you'd still be way cooler if you just tore those walls down and planted some trees." I just smile and nod, not wanting to bother arguing with "well, why don't you shut up and go live in your treehouse, swiss family robinson, and let me have my palace, I'm not out to end your way of life".
My philosophy toward Glom at first was "eh, leave them alone, poor lil buggers." and all we really did was enemy people who quit right away for no real reason and joined them cos they're tainted. ("no we're not!" Ya, I know, my poo smells like cherries too. *slap*) Then it became clear that it had to be 2 on 2 after that. Oh well, we'll deal. I'd rather, as a player and character to have some friends and allies than to be fighting everyone all the time. I think a lot of people on both the Seren and Celest side are still skeptical and wonder if the other will pull out too soon, like a lousy lover.

Someone I don't even know IG said before this something like "shut up and play the game already, and worry about your own RP". That's a great idea. I think there's few characters that stand out. Most Mags creep me out, being really quiet until they kill stuff, but then again, I guess nobody outside of Celest or my friends knows me, and my char is painfully simple, just help out and be nice and smooch pretty girls. Visaeris was a real character once, I loved hating him, in a wierd way, even if his character was just to be a bunghole large enough to pass something the size of Jupiter without bleeding. Maybe it's just charisma. I guess I'm popular with the people cos I'm nice and helpful, and I liked people who charmed me in odd odd ways like Kiki and Wepaw and Simimi, who nobody likely knows, just cos they were nice and talked funny and fun to be around and listen to.

Hmm, somehow I meant to make this more serious and have a deeper point.. I think.. oh well. I haven't slept in quite a while again. Anywho, I'm not really upset at how things are in general at the moment. I still lurve all you guys. Mostly. *eyeshift*

The fact is that Celest sees Serenwilde as a natural ally at this stage. Celest's main focus is the cleansing of Taint from the Basin. Serenwilde seems to like the idea of removing Taint and restoring the Basin to its natural, life-giving self.

There would theoretically come a point, once Taint is removed, that Celest would come to oppose Serenwilde as it seeks to expand and grow in power, research into the arcane and planar, etc. But while the Taint is here, necessity forces both organisations to a grudging common aim.

What I find hilarious is the way Serenwilde tries to resist this natural alliance, this alliance of mutual benefit, with no explicit reason. It's as if their players are subconsciously thinking, 'Wait a second.. we're supposed to distrust cities!'

There is nothing subconscious about it at all. Not every member of Serenwilde is friendly to cities. Gregori certainly has no trust whatsoever for Celest and even less trust for Amaru. Hell put him in a room with Daevos and Amaru and ask him to pick the one he would trust more. He would pick Daevos. Daevos may be "tainted" but at least he comes off as honest about his aims.

I do know what you mean, actually, and reading that made me grin.

I think you've summarised a lot of our thinking very, very well there.

And Gregori is right, its not at all subconcious.

Just to clarify something, Lisaera has never pushed Serenwilde towards Celest, has always said Celest is a city and therefore not trustworthy, and has only allowed this political shift because Celest are less disgusting to Her than Magnagora, who have proved in action far more than Celest has that they're a threat.

Lisaera is also the one making sure Celest knows where they stand and that everyone is aware there is no formal alliance until the Moonhart Council says there is. In fact, if you ask Gregori, he'd probably say She has been the biggest obstacle in getting closer to Celest.

Heh, Gregori will go along with a vote by the Council, but he does not want any formal alliance. He has made this pretty well known on TMC as well. He is more than willing to discuss it, more than willing to hear everyone's side of it, but don't expect him to jump on the Celest is the gooder bandwagon. He thinks half the "celestwilders" are becoming influenced by the Light as it is.

If there has to be a little give and take for Serenwilde to acheive what it wants, then that is one thing, but beyond that he figures any "alliance" should be a handshake deal at the time it is needed. Sitting on the fence is hard to do when you are firmly entrenched on one side of it.

In my experience, you get just about exactly crucified whether you're for or against an alliance. To me the problem is that it always boils down to "for or against an alliance" and that's so not what it is about. It's much more than that. Everyone treats it like it's either we snarl at them and kick their puppies, or we get into bed with them and give up everything about ourselves that isn't them, and there's nothing in between, no other kind of relationship, no other kind of agreement. Like alliance only comes in the "we're their twins" flavor. There are so many other reasons to stand with or against someone in any particular individual enterprise, or even to enter into a longer-standing but limited agreement; so many possibilities, so many reasons, so many shades of relationship. I wish people (I don't mean you, Sylphas, I mean people in general) wouldn't be so oversimplifying and black-and-white about it.

And frankly I think threads like this contribute to that oversimplifying, particularly when people who aren't even involved come in and criticize the reasons for a relationship without even knowing those reasons, just assuming they're black-and-white get-in-bed be-your-twin stuff. Even some people within the organization who haven't happened to hear all the reasons are going to fall for thinking that way, and then it spreads.

What is perhaps worst is that people who are actually roleplaying zealotry as a conscious choice, as an exercise in character development, are having their own efforts lost in the noise of people who are simply falling into a rut of pseudo-zealotry by assuming the most oversimplistic explanation and interpretation of each relationship.

That sums it up, Gwylifar, because for me an alliance could well be a mere 'we'll help you if you help us'. Some Serenwilders seem to view the word alliance as meaning some sort of annexation into Celest. All we want is an agreement of mutual interest in a specific area.

Boy, that really sums up the relationship we had with Auseklis. I always thought there was a lot more ready to grow out of it, like He was just setting stuff up to play out later, putting up clues that were going to gradually resolve into something. And maybe that's right... and He just wandered off before he got any of the rest of it done. As is, thought, He mostly came off as a grumpy old man.

Yeah. The other bad thing politically is that whenever another group shows up somewhere, is the immediate assumption that groups are in bed together.

For concrete example. During the skirmishes on Faethorn, I never saw either on the commune CT nor the commune's military channel, word about "calling in Magnagora". It could be that specific individuals are calling in the Magnagorans, or maybe they just turn up when they see the deathsight, and certain magnagorans are just out for blood that day (not saying this is a trait of players in magnagora. Sometimes certain Celests/Serens/Gloms are just out for blood certain days, too). But immediately the assumption is that Glomdoring is "in bed with Magnagora" and that we "call them in whenever there's a fight". Which may actually be true, but if it is, it's going on in a place which isn't visible to all of us, nor a decision made by the commune as a whole. Of course, politics in the commune being what they are, this would be par for the course and IC, but it's upsetting to be accused of being in bed with someone, when I'm not even the one in bed.

Right -- and more than that, it also means we'll each be sure we're helping the other only in ways that don't contradict our own purpose. Serenwilde will help Celest do stuff that either is neutral to us (e.g., we don't really care who has Acknor) or beneficial to us (e.g., we definitely care who has Estelbar). We'll also help them in ways that fit directly into our purpose -- for instance, encourage them to be respectful of and appreciative of nature and the Great Spirits (it turns out you can influence people like that far better when you're on speaking terms with them -- imagine that!). And I'm sure they could say the same things in reverse.

Nothing in any of that means we support the Light, or that we give up our dedication to the Great Spirits, or that we support "cityness", or that we implicity trust Celest's leaders or indeed anyone in Celest, or that we aren't still watching them to make sure they don't start doing things that threaten us or our concerns. In fact in ways it makes it easier to monitor them to make sure they're behaving. It just means we're defining the nature of our adversarial relationship in a way that happens to be cooperative in limited ways, that's all.

Right. The fact is that if Serenwilde or Celest could get this many villages by themselves, they would do it independently.

It will be interesting for me, the player, to see where things progress once Magnagora is down to Angkrag and the villages are split 5/4/1. Will Celest begin pressurising Serenwilde? Will Serenwilde turn on Celest? Friction increase? One party strike up a shady deal with the Taint? It remains to be seen.

What I do know is that whatever Gregori says, Amaru is pro-Celest and pro-cooperation. He sees all untainted people as his own to defend and protect, but views the correct means of doing this as being the reconstruction of Celest's empire. Amaru has been a major player in 1) the conversions and idea of empire, 2) the villages, 3) Serenwilde's alliance etc, the ESA was my idea, 4) taking Acknor, also my idea. Amaru-Malicia. Celest-Serenwilde. That's my loyalty.

Edit: Sorry this ended up so long. I was feeling ranty. Excuse typos, not used to this keyboard.


Gods may seem like they were tailored to fit with certain cities or communes, but I don't think players realize that they are in no way obligated to allow these Gods to join them. If Serenwilde is frustrated with their inability to have a forest sort of alliance with Glomdoring over a non-taint alliance with Celest and Lisaera is what's keeping them from doing it, they are by all means free to remove Her from Her position as patron or kick Her out of the commune altogether. Not having a patron or any divine consulate at all isn't really going to hurt you that badly.

This basically proves my above point. If Serenwilde wants to find any reasons to ally with Glomdoring, their first step is going to have to be removing Lisaera or at least putting a leash on Her.

Pushing Serenwilde away from Glomdoring is basically the same thing as pushing them towards Celest. Sorry. It's only natural for Serenwilde -- and every other organization -- to desire an ally. If it can't be a "tainted" organization, what other choice is Lisaera leaving them?

I think all the admins are really trying to tell you here is that you aren't always required to listen to what you're told to do. Sure, something may be hardcoded into the game, but if you're persistent enough and roleplay around that obstacle and prove you want things to change IG rather than just ranting on the forums about how it would be nice if maybe they did, it's perfectly feasible that they might actually change.

Celest's patrons have very little control over what actually happens with Celest. Before Isune was sacrificed, many of the citizens didn't want to listen to pushier gods because they thought Isune would just come in and say it was okay if they sat on their butts. Unfortunately gods have little control over what citizens actually do. It's up to the players to decide what sort of RP they want their city/commune to have, and as long as there's democracy in Lusternia, there probably won't be anyone with radical, fresh ideas elected into leadership positions.

I find it astounding that anyone wonders why Celest and Serenwilde ended up allied when people who are arguably their best fighters are thinking like this. Sure, maybe Gregori doesn't support the alliance, but he certainly seems to be a minority.

Agreed. I think a lot of us feel this way. I was one of the original members of the DoC and I know for a fact that what Glomdoring is today is a far cry from the Glomdoring that so many of us wanted. The potential is probably still there and I think Glomdoring would have been a lot better off that way than it is now, but c'est la vie and all that.

Really, you're not forced to do anything. Much of Glomdoring's leadership would love to start writing up treaties with Serenwilde, but your patron isn't letting that happen. You're bringing it upon yourselves. Glomdoring doesn't ask for Magnagora's aide. Magnagora just shows up because they seem to believe Glomdoring was introduced to give them a source of alchemy.

This is so beyond untrue. Things only seem this way because that's how players allowed the roleplay to flesh out. I'm really disappointed with the number of Serenwilders and Magnagorans who IMMEADIATELY flooded Glomdoring and took the leadership positions. There were so many people who had roleplayed wanting to be a Glomdorian from early in the game and yet people who had previously been in cities (Chade?) or communes of opposing belief (Bau? Gwynevere?) were the ones who were given the opportunity to shape things. It's really no wonder Glomdoring is where it is today when 50% of the citizens are former Magnagorans (this would certainly explain why Glomdoring gets along so well with Mag) and the other 50% are forestals who couldn't get along with Serenwilde so they left. Yes, I realize there was a bit of RP thrown in to justify the presence of Serenwilders in Glomdoring, but Glomdoring has thrown away every other bit of the foundation Viravain gave them, and really, where is Viravain now to get mad when Her precious beloved aren't listened to? Granted, the majority of the leadership is now composed of former Magnagorans (with a former Celestian or two thrown in, horray for good RP! ), so it's not that much of an issue, but it's also far from a solution.

Pah, you just ignore it when people do.



Something I've wanted to say since page one.

The way I see it, Lusternia is built with Celest's perspective as the default. Its always going to look like Celest is in the "historical right" because everything in the world is shaped from thier perspective. Much like how in our world, everything is shaped from the European perspective.

It takes some "thinking outside the box" to get new perspectives. For example, I LOVE what they did with Glomdoring. Taint is no longer just this thing you have to accept, and if thats true with Taint, thats true with every other aspect of Lusternia also.

Crackpot theories are able to be more than just crackpot theories, they can be the new historical reality of the small village that has been cut off from history.

Everytime a player on this forum says "Just accept the taint" or, "the game is hardcoded this way" they are making it harder and harder for people to RP something other than the Celest perspective of the world.

What I'd rather hear people on the forum saying is "Damn, you guys are fustrating cause I don't get the perspective your charachter is having, and its confusing me, but hey this is cool and unique!"

If you go back to the creation myth, and your charachter learns it in game, theres plenty of room for people to start worshiping Yudhe, Dynara or Magnora. I had thought when I first started playing that Celest would be with Dynara, Serenwilde Yudhe, and Magnagora Magnora, and then you have all the factions and splintering of beliefes that can be forged based on that, with new ideas created by players that eventually get "coded in" when there is enough base behind it.(we have allready seen evidence that they will do that)... but oh well.

My sister made a moondancer, from what she has told me, and what the posts on the sernwilde news say, Anti Taint seems to be shoved down people's throats and the nuance is there only during political dissagreement, but the first thing the moondancers seem to be taught is how evil taint is.

I think that the quests that allowed Hart or Crow to kill eachother no longer working should have been a reason for people to stop and think.