I want to ask a general opinion before I go on the path of trying to get something changed, and thats bonecrusher vs blademaster.

What do the general population of knights believe.

I'll list what I believe the pros of each type are.

Blademaster-

slitthroat - with slickness this is an uncurable lock.
Pinleg/impale - good hindering
Rend- 250 bleed per rend, a speed knight can stack this liek crazy
Scalp - insane bleeding if not cured, and it gets worse and worse

(jabs) arms afflictions - bleeding, and hemiphlegy and holes in arms

(jab) chest afflliction - puncturelung and collapselung to give blackouts

(jab) head fflictions - stun with ears, slitthoat as previously mentioned, and scalping -
sliced forehead.

(jab) legs - pinleg and rendwhoring (swing) slicetendon

gut af(jab) ons - slicegut,

Blademasters can also get someones bleeding up past 2k a round, which there is no counter for, clotting and chervil isn't a viable counter in my opinion.

One other things that blademasters have going for them, is that their good afflictions are mostly jabs, especially the rending, hemiphlegy and impale/pinleg

Bonecrusher

Leg afflictions -
(Jab) Knockdown - good with crush, and the best move we've got offensivley.

(swing) smashleg and mangleleg- doesn't make them prone, which it should, but the regen-mending on mangle isn't too bad, against a good healer though its not going to stick for long.

(swing)Arm afflictions- I believe they are quite weak, breakwrist with a rgene cure helps, but its still very rare to get off. also breakarm and fracture arm are ok, but are all swings rather than jabs. The ONLY arm jab afliciton is slapknuckle

chest afflictions - crushchest and breakchest ONLY hit your endurance up, no other effects on the victim.

gut afflictions - (jab) vomit blood which is useless, wind which is good when it goes off, but generaly very unreliable and most people dont heal gut because its preferable to get vomitblood than wind.
(jab) burstograns - rather useless when the cure is a simple regen cure, it needs another effect like perhaps heartpierce style damage or a lot of internal bleeding.

head afflictions (jab) fracture skull and concussion, both are not too bad to mess someone up with who doesn't heal their head or parry it.

(swing) blackout - not a bad skill, the ab file says its a jab but its actually a swing, making it unreliable and inaccurate.

(swing) Bloodynose and breaknose - don't give any significant bleeding or effect to the target, except for snorting spores.

Its messy I know, my opinion at the moment is that BM's are not a lot more superior to bc's when it comes to the higher levels of combat.

Also, bonecrusher speed knights are unfeasable and simply don't exist because its not viable to. I want to get away from being a damage knight and get into speeding it, but its not going to happen as a bonecrusher

I agree with some of your points. BC's are slightly overshadowed now with the BM upgrades. Perhaps a couple BC afflictions can be switched to jabs so that crushes and strikes work better. Smiting/hacking is too unreliable to do more than sporadically to get the affliction you want.

However:
-Sliththroat is insanely hard to get. Extremely hard.
-The most anyone got me bleeding was nearing 1k, by Alger, before I had the new envoy cures. I'm sure you're referring to Terenas and you in the arena, but I've never had him do any significant bleeding to me so I can't comment from your perspective as a BC.

The problem I have with Blademasters is bleeding. The fact that they can imaple/pinleg easily through lunge then rend for 500 bleeding each combo is too much for me to handle.

I agree with Murphy that Clot and chervil are not adequate, especially when you are bleeding over 1k, which is very common when fighting a BM. I would need to clot like crazy at the expense of mana and/or eating chervil, which takes a few at least to bring down the bleeding (given you have not been scalped or pierced arteries). All this time my mana is getting low from clotting and I dont have herb balance to cure other things like pierced arteries, pierced nerves, and other herb-cured afflictions.

Here is part of a fight I had with Terenas:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

1333h, 2008m, 9p, 21199en elrxk-
You take a drink from a ruby vial.
The potion heals and soothes you.

You bleed 1094 health.
clot
clot
outr chervil
eat chervil
clot
moondance waxing

You may eat or smoke another herb.
outr chervil
eat chervil


1649h, 1913m, 9p, 21199en elrxk-
You remove 1 chervil, bringing the total in the Rift to 438.
1649h, 1913m, 9p, 21199en elrxk-
You eat a sprig of chervil.
Your bleeding slows as your blood clots.
1649h, 1913m, 9p, 21199en elrxk-
1649h, 1853m, 9p, 21199en elrxk-
You dance joyously to the spirit of the Moon and are bathed in a soft lunar
light which heals your wounds.

You remove 1 chervil, bringing the total in the Rift to 437.
3271h, 1773m, 9p, 21199en lrxk-
You eat a sprig of chervil.
The plant has no effect.

You feel an aura of rebounding surround you.
east
stance arms

There is no exit in that direction.

You must regain equilibrium first.
l

You may eat or smoke another herb.
outr chervil
eat chervil
3628h, 1826m, 9p, 21219en lrxk-
Tiny tremours spread through your body as the world seems to slow down.

Muskeg at the edge of a valley.
A gentle slope leads up from the bowl-shaped muskeg, keeping the water that
pools there from flowing into the valley that lies off to the south. Clusters
of sedge grass and misshapen pine trees mask the spongy and treacherous ground,
giving the appearance of solid soil. The air hangs heavy with the smell of
rotting vegetation and meat, only occasionally stirred up by the fresh breezes
that flow off the mountain to the south. Loud croaks and the calls of water
fowl echo through the thick air, providing a contrast to the soft, steady hum
of the insects that fly from plant to plant on urgent business. A pitch torch
is here burning merrily.
You see exits leading west, northwest, and up.
moondance waxing

You remove 1 chervil, bringing the total in the Rift to 436.

You eat a sprig of chervil.
Your bleeding slows as your blood clots.

You must regain equilibrium first.
west
stance arms

=========================================
+ * + * E Q - R E C O V E R E D * + *
=========================================


You may eat or smoke another herb.
outr chervil
eat chervil
You may drink another health, mana, or bromide potion.
3628h, 1826m, 9p, 21219en elrxk-
You slowly hobble west.

You enter a stance to protect your arms.

You remove 1 chervil, bringing the total in the Rift to 435.
west
stance arms

You eat a sprig of chervil.
Your bleeding slows as your blood clots.

You slowly hobble west.

You enter a stance to protect your arms.
3628h, 1826m, 9p, 21229en elrxk-
You may eat another sparkleberry.
3628h, 1802m, 9p, 21229en elrxk-
You bleed 852 health.
clot
clot
outr chervil
eat chervil
clot

2776h, 1742m, 9p, 21229en elrxk-
moondance waxing

You remove 1 chervil, bringing the total in the Rift to 434.
2776h, 1682m, 9p, 21229en elrxk-
You eat a sprig of chervil.
The plant has no effect.
2776h, 1682m, 9p, 21229en elrxk-
2776h, 1622m, 9p, 21229en elrxk-
You step out of your defensive fighting stance.
Deep in the muskeg.
You see exits leading northeast, east, and northwest.
west
stance arms

You dance joyously to the spirit of the Moon and are bathed in a soft lunar
light which heals your wounds.

There is no exit in that direction.

You must regain equilibrium first.
3999h, 1542m, 9p, 21227en lrxk-
You may eat or smoke another herb.
outr chervil
eat chervil

You remove 1 chervil, bringing the total in the Rift to 433.

You eat a sprig of chervil.
Your bleeding slows as your blood clots.
west
stance arms

There is no exit in that direction.

You must regain equilibrium first.

You may eat or smoke another herb.
outr chervil
eat chervil
moondance full

You remove 1 chervil, bringing the total in the Rift to 432.

You eat a sprig of chervil.
Your bleeding slows as your blood clots.

You must regain equilibrium first.

=========================================
+ * + * E Q - R E C O V E R E D * + *
=========================================

diagnose

You bleed 696 health.
clot
clot
outr chervil
eat chervil
clot

You are:
suffering from a punctured chest.
suffering from a pierced right leg.
an insomniac.
has a partially damaged right arm.
4017h, 1764m, 10p, 21237en lrxk-

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It took me 6 clots and 5 chervils to reduce my bleeding from 1094 to 696, for a total reduction of 398 bleeding. And it only takes one round of lunges/rend to give 500 bleeding. Now with rapiers in the hands of an aslaran or faeling, that's 500 bleeding every 3 seconds.

EDIT: I gagged the clotting message to save myself from being spammed to death.

Those numbers are worst case scenario. Based on your health, you were way behind in your curing to begin with.

Assumptions you made on the 500 per 3s
-you stopped attacking which would otherwise slow him down
-you didnt parry the swords
-you didnt 'dodge'
-he didnt miss which seems to be roughly 10% miss rate, or miss on your stance (which should be on legs if your wounds are so low as to accrue a pinleg)
-that he double pinlegged, which isnt the easiest thing to do

I do acknowledge that the bleeding can get ridiculous, and in a short amount of time at heavy and critical wound states, but almost exclusively through curing failures and/or lack of offensive ability to slow such things down (which leads us back to BC's needing more jab afflictions), not from overpowered bleedings.

I was near death and was running away! The bit I showed was actually a few minutes into the fight. I was bleeding over 1.5k and was trying to fight and heal at the same time. Ignoring my lack of courage and skills, the log was there to show the rate of reducing bleeding by clotting and chervil, which isn't very effective at all.

And yes those are the assumptions I made, but they are not very far off as Pinleg and Impale can be both given by Lunge, which bypasses stances and parry. As for attacking back, I had two problems during that fight:-
i) I couldn't attack while being impaled or pinlegged, and I didn't know whether I should writhe (which takes forever) or just wait for him to rend.
ii) I couldn't eat chervil at the beginning of the fight because I had to eat faeleaf to cure blindness or eat yarrow or smoke myrtle to mend the hole in my arms. Eventually the bleeding stacked up and I was forced to run.

So my overall impression is that I need more effective means to control my bleeding. It could be just me though since I am a poor healer.

Personally I eat chervil when im bleeding enough, only when i don't have other cures that take prioroty, such as arteries and whatnot.

Perhaps a cap on bleeding at 800 health per round or another number would be a good idea. Bleeding 2k a round is crazy when you're also fighting a speed knight.

That aside, bonecrushers have NO other means to kill except for bashbrain.

You can't afflict them reliably, you can't bleed them and you can heartpierce them.

Burstorgans is useless (as seen in a previous log against narsrim) and being able to deepheal while prone was the worth thing that coudl've happen to bonecrushers, as our offence somewhat relies on keeping the target prone and unable to get up via mangled legs, so you can get at their head.

You can't damage kill them, and sacrifice plain out doesn't work on anyone who can cure scabies and writhe, if sacrifice was like vivisect, or was doable if you get them to all 4 limbs broken BEFORE the crucify, then yeh ok it might be workable, but it isn't so it's not.

I'd like to see bonecrushers thrown a bone to make them workable. Personally I'm going to go down the speed bonecrusher route, and work with it and see what I can come up with. The problem is none currently exist, I may not win as much but I'm in for the challenge

If you have a bleeding cap, it should probably be lower than that so the people for whom that's about 1/3 max health stand a better chance. But I'm not sure how necessary that is, eh.

Anyway, leaving the rest of the post alone, I want to point out how inaccurate this is. Only like two fighters now have deepheal. And only one is remotely a threat to you. This is not "the worst thing that could've happened."

EDIT: And you can damage kill a huge lot of people. Bashbrain is NOT the only way.

shiri, I'm talking about a speed bonecrusher has no other method to kill someone.

And as far as bleeding cap goes, i thought it was a bit low to have it at 800 health, given that I've seen it get up to 2.5-3k a round, thats much worse than any combo I can do

On that note, fighting someone with deepheal as a speed bonecrusher is a totally rediculous affair, its not that it happens with a lot of fighters, its that it CAN happen.

It's like people complainign about knight damage, when there are 3 damage knights who pose a threat and are somewhat excessive.

My problem is, that you can ONLY be a damage bonecrusher, blademasters have an option of both which work out well. Like I said I'm going to go and be a speed BC for a while, that way there is some incentive for getting it looked at, because at the moment its a non-issue since speed BC do'nt exist

I think bleeding is fine at the moment as in reality you wouldn't be able to keep control of your bleeding if your being seriously slashed away.

Prone should have more restrictions on it though just like blindness and deafness were given more restrictions. The BM aflliction leg tendon doesn't even know the opponent down for example therefore making it useless.

Alright, point conceded that you were talking about speed bonecrushers in particular.

And hmm, can't you do puer prone? Never bothered to check. Not sure. Just curious.

neither does smashleg or mangle leg, a nice change would be that all those afflictions make the target prone.

not only that, but having burstorgans do some serious extra damage, plus bleeding (kind of like heartpierce, and 250 bleeding for each burstorgans) would be nice too, give us speed bonecrushers a chance.

breaking chest should have a bit more penalty, and say bloody and broken nose and blackout should be JABS like the AB files state, and bleeding upped on those too

The only one of those points that concerns me is the slitthroat-slickness combo being unbreakable. I agree that chervil got nerfed a little too much, though.

You can use green/hod, right?

puer can be done while prone, but its nowhere NEAR the goodness of deepheal. puer takes a long eq and a decent chunk of mana

EDIT: 500 mana plus a decently long eq, which is not very affordable when fighting a knight as you're usually surged

doesn't hod cure mental afflictions? I thought it did.

slit-throat/slickness is bad bad bad, especially if you get scalped, they can just snuggle you and watch you bleed to death

Did you have a Kingdom enchantment, Icarus? Just curious.

Oh, maybe I'm wrong then. Could've sworn Hod and Green cured any one affliction. Guess not. (Oh, and Guardians have puella too, so yeah about the surging.)

you mean puer don't you?

and puer is fine because it takes eq and only can do one at a time, regenerate and deepheal is much much faster, and pulls it back to full? I'm not sure of the details but the healing skillset totally reduces a speed crusher's offence to nothing, at least a blademaster can get bleeding in

I mean puer, yes. And deepheal has a fairly long eq associated, puts it back to full, and only one can be done at a time just like puer (I think the eq may be slightly shorter than puer though). Except it costs ego instead of mana, and it's a lot more than 500. Then again it's hard to drain ego compared to mana, but with debating offensively being looked into this may no longer be the case.

Im pretty sure green cures any two afflictions. Thats basic too, other things are better like syphon, the moon equivalent etc etc.