i can just see it doing wonders for a knights offence to stop and......DEBATE someone in the middle of a fight.

Like, great RP there. The fact it takes ego is really good for the healer, its crazy

Didn't Daevos do that before actually to stop Narsrim from healing so much?

Anyway, I agree that the bleeding can get pretty insane, which is why I'm suggesting in the next Envoy to hopefully get chervil its own balance (2 to 3 seconds) and perhaps clot a bit more (around 30 to 60 health). The bleeding on Rend might need a bit of looking into, but it really depends on your healing. I've never had Revan, Geb, or Alger impaled more than a few times in a row, and only gets lucky with lunges on them.

i don't want to see blademasters nerfed, I want to see bonecrushers have the ability to be wounding knights

You can now, you did 28 wounding to me in 2 crushes.

bah you're a goose terenas!

I mean wounding as in, give us decent afflictions. I know I can do good wounding, just not good affliction to go with it, compared to BM

Let us not turn this into one of those:

"Bonecrushers were like awesome but now they suck because BMs got the upgrade. We need upgraded again too. And then we'll be better than BMs and they'll need an upgrade... but then we'll need an upgrade again after that. Ya!"

no, I'd like to see Bonecrushers brought up to par with BM, and balance be acheived and left at that

Translation into English:

I want Bonecrushers upgraded more. Even though there is a possibility that Blademasters are -too- good, screw it, just make me better.

I'd just like wounding fixed. 20 wounding with lunge/crush is pretty high, but at least one health application cures that, and it costs 4 powers. 28-30 wounding is just rediculous altogether, especially when you have high protection armor. I took 28 wounding to my head with a 97 blunt protection helm.

Well thats the by-product of 20 strength. You too can get that high, but roark is still playing with wounding, so have faith

my problems are the afflictions themselves.

And narsrim, you say yourself my hammers only tickle and are useless, the reason for that is i have no decent afflictions, like massive bleeding or heartpierce.

Note the thread title down the bottom, knights only. You aren't a knight, so you don't know what its like, all you know is knights from a healing perspective, and you have deepheal so your perception is ratehr skewed, so get off my thrread and start your own!

You are so right, Murphy. Bonecrushers are so massively underpowered. Well, I bet Ur'guard Bonecrushers are probably the weakest class. Shame. We should upgrade them and then upgrade them again just because there is no way we could even the score in one upgrade. /sarcasm

I hate to break it to you genius, but a 'balanced' view is a view that takes into account both the side of the knight and the side of the opponent. The only reason you want to reject my opinion is because I'm raining on the "oh, pity BCs, we are so weak and so helpless."

I think he's only talking about speed bonecrushers, Narsrim. Which is a very different boat than damage bonecrushers (which very few would dare to say are in any way weak). Speed blademasters can work up bleeding, getting a kill that way- speed bonecrushers are lacking in afflictions that can add up like that, especially as there is very little damage to prevent someone from applying.

At least, that's how I'm reading it.

If you actually looked at our offence, its weak.

There is a reason why speed/wounding bonecrushers don't exist, its because they are no-where NEAR as good as blademasters in terms of afflictions.

You only know what its like to heal against the two, your point of view about offence of a BC is invalid, as you can not possibly know what its like to see BMs have all these awesome jab afflictions, and we have to bloody swing!

I'm changing over to wounding and speed for my offence, and i'll prove just how weak it really is, so like I SAID sunshine, this is about the offence of BC and BM compared to each other.

In other words, get of my thread princess if you have nothing valuable to contribute from personal experience as a knight.

EDIT: Xenthos gets my point, well done to him

I know you are not normally this dense. Of course, I know what both are like! I FIGHT BOTH ALL THE DAMN TIME! For you to claim my opinion is invalid because I have to *gasp* fight both and heal against both is simply retarded.

Personally, I find speed bm > damage bm and damage bc > speed bc... and shouldn't it be that way?

no narsrim, all forms of knights should be balanced and viable, WHICH IS MY POINT *fume*

And you haven't fought a speed BC before, wanna know how I know that? They DONT FRIGGIN EXIST, the closest you have gotten is fighting me with my crappy hammers which have now been smelted and replaced.

EDIT: You ALSO failed to address my point of jab and swing afflictions, the majority of BM afflictions which are useful and have a synergy, are JAB, the bonecrusher ones are SWING. That in itself is a massive massive difference

actually it might be just me but I like the bc afflicts. They're easy to use in my opinion.

Also a lot of wrong info in your first post.

With kindom enchant and a general good curing (includes chervil)...I never, ever bleed more than 350-400 at any given time...though, if the bleeding really gets that many people, you could instead of giving chervil its own balance, just have it clot more bleeding.

Right now chervil clots ~40 bleeding, where as discipline clot seems to clot for about ~25 bleeding. You can try having discipline clot 40 bleeding and chervil clot 80 bleeding?

Alger, the bc afflics are mainly on swings, which that in itself makes it rediculous

You can get the limbs to -500 status or so and then start swinging, no?

only if the target in question doesn't heal them, however getting their limbs low against a -good- fighter is hard enough.

Considering most of blademasters useful tactics revolve around jab, this in itself is an imbalance before we even look at the afflictions.

Anyone who has tried to be a good speed/wounding bonecrusher in recent times will agree,