Well i think most are just tired of the same repeat thing. Long on, defup,bash some,VILLAGE UP, die die die, damn bash. Next day restart, heh. But witht hese new skills and such i think after they let something big out it will refresh some people and make it more intresting again.

I'm feeling very discouraged. I can't think of a single RP angle I've been pursuing that is going anywhere or showing any signs of going anywhere. I had that adders thing (and for that, I get stuck sitting in one room for five hours doing nothing every week or two, gaining virtually nothing for it -- nice reward, eh?), and it seems like that was it, that was my quota, I used it all up early and not wisely. I just keep throwing things out and none of them ever stick.

Lisaera has done her best on some of them, but it's just not turning out to be enough. I have two simple yes/no questions that almost all my dozens of aslaran RP things are waiting on that have been sitting unanswered since early June. All my work (about 60 hours in total, I estimate) in the Moors was for nothing, with no explanation -- in fact my work is turning out to be responsible for the exact opposite outcome, making the whole event boil down to "here's a terrible thing you have to avert, here's a good long list of IC reasons to avert it, oh, and by the way, we made sure you can't avert it, and that you won't be able to know that until it's too late". My several efforts to try to make some kind of RP out of the essentially-RP-dead adders thing just got flat "no" answers, essentially to preserve the nothing that's there now. I can't get my guild interested in guild RP -- though that's not the administration's fault, my guildmates just don't seem to be interested. I've been working on guild history since December and in that time I have gained exactly one answer (Eurytus is old enough to have come from Gloriana). I have oars in the water about transplanting bats, about poisons research, about the Great Spirits, and a half-dozen other things, all of which are either being ignored by the admin, or denied and quashed.

And all that is what happens when things get better -- when the endless conflict lets up for a week or two and I get to start trying on roleplay things. Most of the time I don't even get to fail.

I am feeling like every bit of RP I've managed to accomplish has been in spite of things. Mostly I show up so I can get my hopes built up and then dashed. Get challenges put in front of me that can't be accomplished, fights that can't be won. And every time I try to put a bit of my own creativity into it, it gets quashed, even though I'm fastidiously careful about fitting in with what's there both in fact and in tone.

I think I'm being given a very solid message, that I don't fit and that I'm just a pain in the ass for constantly trying to do a little more and a little different and constantly asking for stuff. I go to a lot of effort to make sure I don't ask for anything that'll take a lot of work, and I make sure every bit I can do I do to minimize the burden on the over-busy folks up in the Havens, but I'm realizing it's not about the workload. It's about the stuff I'm actually trying to do. It's just not what Lusternia wants.

That's depressing.

They probably have a lot on their heads all the time. Like Estarra said, Lusternia was opened halfway done and they still have to create and incorporate all those things from original project. I can only imagine how much work that requires. Then there's a lot of bugs to fix, balance issues to be resolved, especially when so many new skillsets come out at so fast rate.

It sucks if you work hard and it gets you nowhere at the end. But maybe instead of ideas you have, no matter how good they are, they're rather focused on building the rest of the game. Think about how many new places have been added, how many new skills have been released. There was a new commune with three new guilds created after just several months after opening.

I don't really know, it's pretty much guessing, but maybe instead of "You suck" or flat out "No", it really is "Not now".

That said, I don't really think it helps much even if you look at it that way, frustrated just the same I guess...

Sounds to me like your relying on the admin too much to do your RP for you.

The admin most likely will NOT answer yes or no questions so that players can debate such things in game, or the answer may be yes for one group and no for another.

I have had no problems roleplaying any of the things I wanted to roleplay, except for one minor thing that seemed to happen specifically because of what me and a group of people were doing, but all in all that change has actually made things more intersting.

Oh the irony...

Well, I do make a point of putting as little burden on them as I can, Kashim. I'm not asking them to come up with everything, just to let me know if I can go ahead with stuff without contradicting them. It's not like I'm asking for anything bigger than other people are asking when they do things like Richter's bit with finding his ancestor's mace, or stuff Shikari does in Glomdoring for people, or Murphy's custom flails. In fact considerably less, I'm not even asking to have objects made or room-emotes done or anything, let alone having someone actually write stuff up or come up with answers to questions about the missing things in the game history.

But where do you get an answer to something like "when was the Serenguard founded?" I can't decide the answer, I don't have the authority, and I can't contradict stuff that might be canon. How much more can I do to facilitate it beyond actually writing up an answer and presenting it and just asking if I can go ahead with it? If that's still asking too much, then... that's what I'm saying, isn't it? That what I want, the chance to be creative and build some roleplay that actually fleshes out the world more than "hey, let's stand around and do some rite", is asking too much.

Is it really too much to expect that if you get IC reasons piled on you by denizens why you should do something, then spend gobs and gobs of time doing it, and I mean literally weeks of non-stop effort, that it should mean something? That it shouldn't be erased without explanation so someone can just do the opposite as if nothing had been done in a matter of hours? Who wouldn't feel like they'd been set up, tricked, taken advantage of?

Maybe it is. That's why I'm thinking maybe MUDs aren't for me. Seems like if you want RP, MUDs are a crappy substitute for PBEMs which are a crappy substitute for meeting with friends and roleplaying. Maybe that's fine for other people, but if I don't have a way to be able to be creative here, all that's left is a series of challenges that were decided against me before I even started. Where's the fun?

The reason you can't be told when the Serenguard were founded is because nobody knows

The Ebonguard had a bit of the same problem, because I was being told that we founded the guild, yet we needed "history."

So in actuallity, you CAN decide when the Serenguard were founded, because you can have different interpretations of what "founded" really means.

Was America founded in 1776 or in the late 1600s when people first thought about becoming independant?

Gwylifar, I think you should stop waiting on the admin's to give you the ok and just start making some declarations. If you want to say that the Serenguard were founded in a certain time period and there are no evidences to disprove that, then go for it. Could you be wrong? Sure. That can only be a good thing though if you think about it. If the admins proved you wrong then at least you'd know the reality of when the guild was founded. Take some risks and start making some mistakes.

If anything you could get in an argument with the person who says your wrong, maybe something, it at least wont be boring... So yeah, you should just start makin stuff up, if you get shot down, just say you read it from some ancient book or something, and that is what you understood it to say, claiming it was a misinterpritation or something...
if that didn't make sense I'm sorry, it's late...

I would say start coming up with your own answers, too. If the admins don't like it they will be forced to give you some answers when you start putting this history out there.

Just as a reader and a fo.. player I see where Gwylifar is coming from, though I just as much feel for the admin in the same token. What Gwylifar has asked (At least about the guild) is basically why has it come, where has it come from, and so on. I mean, he very well could assume that Eurytus fled from Glomdoring with the rest of the Centaur and formed a band of protectors that were neither Moondancer nor Hartstone that used their bodies as an offense and defense to protect both Mother Moon and the White Hart from Crow/Night, Rowena, and the tainted beings that might've sought to harm the Serenwilde...

He could very well do that, but why make up something when most other guild histories have been addressed or hinted to in some form? It isn't fair to the guild nor is it really fair to Lusternia to have even something that might seem minor to others neglected when someone is making such a strong effort to bring something that should've been into being.

Yes, it's true that Lusternia is rapidly developing (at an amazing rate actually) and it's true that some things just need to be tweaked as some of you have addressed, but it's just a simple phase at the moment. No, it doesn't make sense for you to have to ride it out, but what else can you do? I could continue from here, but I'm not active enough to touch upon the issues you might face now and my words would just lose meaning.. so just have hope, suggest improvements to the admin (Who we all know listen for the most part), and play if you feel like it. If you don't then don't feel guilty. Even that may or may not prompt action to the issues you all list. Overall, be happy and if you can't be happy don't force yourself to make up solutions if it truly isn't you or your fellow players at fault.

I basically agree with the last few people.

Sometimes you go ahead and declare things, or claim to have learned this and that. There are SO many opinions on what was already given material in Lusternia (part of the point) that "going against canon" as you say doesn't strike me as relevant. The admin encourage people to set up their own roleplay often, and sometimes that precedent gets attention... but, it doesn't work like pen and paper tabletop games - you can't just sit talking to yourself, knowing the DM is watching everything you do, and you can quickly tire yourself out expecting results that way in Lusternia. The world is crafted by some individual attention and by group motivation - as has been pointed out in the past, keeping the most people happy is where an administration's goal will push towards.

How you work with this to establish RP in game is rallying groups, rather than beseeching the divine, who don't forget, have a million ideas and typo/bug/issue reports to read, in addition to the bardic stuff. Sometimes if no guildmates are interested in following along, you might just have to step on some toes to establish RP foundations. Rather than asking people in game if they want to follow along with something, you could set up claims and situations in which people can come to you with information along with the ability to set up their own.

I don't know how your RP is put together over there, since I've little (almost no) contact with your character or the aslaran's background. But what I would suggest is this...

On the history of the Serenguard, it may be missing because they did not put it in, or because tribal ritual and hearth wisdom was supposed to collect and form it by revelation through the traditions or development from them - something which you could easily spark, and later be known as the historian that revealed the truth. Suppose you went on something of a vision quest, had hallucinations in which you spoke with (several characters you invented) and the truth of (your RP focus) was revealed to you at (a dreamstate place you've not seen IC or somewhere that already exists). Beyond the basin even. The admin's crafting of RP can't be foiled so easily, there isn't a canon you have to worry about being stricken with lightning for transgressing against - any number of things could undo or modify what you have to say. Raezon without your knowledge had influenced you so he could test mind-altering herbs to try to develop controlling concoctions... a dreamweaver had given you false visions, to protect a secret they didn't want uncovered, and to shift the attention to you rather than uncovering it... and then hey, maybe from those simple declarations, some people are interested. Suddenly, someone IC is playing the dreamweaver who didn't at first even have a mechanical existance, a divine puts in a secret to uncover as suddenly group interest mounts... or maybe you invented it as far as the dreamweaver, and there are more steps to even that.

The key in a group styled RP environment will be to get the groups first and pen down the secrets later - part of the excitement of getting new things is that discovery, that newness, and anything you can do as a player will not change the nature of the landscape without divine help, and especially as you're not having fun waiting, I'd suggest to take a chance and see what you can develop. The only thing that could stand to change is your support level and your enjoyment, and if it's that low, that only means it will go up. Post about your histories to the guild, when they argue, invite them to join a historical society to debate the roots of your past. Pretend to be posessed, undergoing a vision, and reveal "secrets" to people in the area. Then, fall down, and "wake up" moments later. Remember nothing, or supplement what you thought you saw with information you made up OOC and start encouraging others to help you look into it. Better yet, look at the details of some of the places you want to include, or some of the descendents/followers/ruins that might be a part of it, find minute details, include clues to them so others can find them and everyone can make progress in the mystery.

Whatever you do, have fun with it. As much work as you said you put into those other things, I wouldn't doubt that you couldn't make up some interesting sets of "rules" as you went along, so to speak, and if it's handed down that you're wrong, any number of reasons that will only continue RP could be used to excuse you.

I was bored and about to quit Lusternia..

Then I changed class, and I'm hooked again!

mmm i'm glad i haven't had to change yet to avoid quitting...

I go through cycles i think, on again off again

I don't think I'm conveying how much of that stuff I did. Consider as an example the Serenguard founding history. I didn't just research it and put together a theory, I provided the admin with a fully fleshed out account as early as December, which they could have simply said yes or no to back then. I provided dozens of opportunities for them to do so IC or OOC, where even the tiniest hint could have been easily given. Sure, of course I'd rather have had clues and a mystery to solve to uncover an answer instead of having to invent it, but that would indeed be being demanding, to expect someone to find the time to set that up, so I did it all myself and offered it, only hoping to get it made canon. I've written it in story form and even went so far as to roleplay Gwylifar seeking inspiration by communing with the Great Spirits so the admin could trivially easily use all my work, but without preventing them from contradicting it, either fully or in parts. Absolutely the only thing I didn't already do was make the final decision that this is canon. Exactly all I asked was a yes or no, and I did everything humanly possible to make it as quick and easy as it could be to give it.

Maybe I should have. Most of the time when I have in the past, something came along and contradicted me almost immediately, though. But maybe I should have. Would that be discourteous or presumptuous? At this point should I care?

So let's assume I am permitted to invent history and call it canon. Great. We've "solved" the tenth or so of all my roleplay problems that don't require even the tiniest actual effect on the world around me, at least until the contradictions come that undermine and undo it all. Don't think I haven't seriously considered going this way. If it was that simple I'd've just done it.

However, I have had someone take some interest in this and ask for me to send some of the troubles and possibilities for consideration, so maybe something good will come of all this.

I recall in Achaea that the Occultists had developed their own creation myth since it was not fully developed by Sarapis. For myself, I would frequently find thing and run with them on my own based on modern history and project those backwards in time. For example, the Church had a Rite of Demons. No one knew for sure how it was developed, but it was easy to accuse them of having once in the unknown past made a deal with evil and take the RP from there. Another angle was pushing my former guild to emphasize being a guild focused on the ideals of a certain philosophy and using arguments to show that the modern day (and thus observable/knowable) culture of the guild must have derived from the ideals of this philosophy I'm throwing out there, and thus (without knowing the past with certainty) claim it as an attempt to reclaim our roots. I'd also periodically write educational "treatises" based on what I had observed. (Granted, I enjoy writing, so I did it more for the love of writing than for the game.) And those treatises, either public or internal, had an influence on the game; it helped get me over GR 15 due to how it impacted various people in the gulid.

Yet most of my RP pushes wouldbe considered failures if measured in terms of having a permanent impact. I always enjoyed ruffling people's feathers, or seeing how some would jump on the bandwagon and others would form political factions to oppose me, within the guild and outside, and that's all I cared about. A problem (which I have seen happen to some notable people here since day one) is when there is an expectation that everyone will be persuaded to one's side and go along with the lead. If I had that expectation then I'd have been burned out from MUDs a long time ago. I always chose RP angles knowing some, if not most, would not buy it/believe it, and then have my fun with those that did or have fun lighting fires under people to get a rise out of them. (Though warning to anyone taking this seriously: always be aware of your political capital so you don't light too many fires and make yourself hated.)

As for Lusternia, generally speaking the producers will not be writing detailed history of things in order to avoid pidgeonholing something. For example, even Magnagora is not well defined in the post-Kethuru taint world. Technically speaking, they could have become bunny farmers and worshippers of rainbows once the taint became dormant; there really is very little said about what the dormant taint did to Magnagora. So the current culture of Magnagora and its Viscanti is probably largely player-created. Though that's an obvious one since Magnagora is evil and thus lends itself to the traditional evil roles (one of the few promptings we've given for its proper roles), nonetheless it is still an example of that sort of thing. Looking to the future, the Paladins guild may have its period where it is dogmatic and zealotous, and it may have periods where it is kind and humble. The problem with giving a strongly defined history of that guild as a guild of thugs crusading for the light like the RL crusaders or as a guild of noble honorable "Lancelot/Galahad" types of knights is that it could force the guild into one of those roles when we'd rather let the players guide that direction and be able to change direction as the political winds shift.

magnagora is not evil.... thier just "tainted" We shouldn't look at things in black and white Roark.

From an OOC point of view, Magnagora is very obviously evil, but from an IC perspective they won't agree and the axis isn't good/evil anyway.

Good and Evil are just opinons. If i kill a guy think it's righ ti am good. Someone who views are diffrent see it as evil. therefore you see them as evil and they don't see themselves as evil simple.

Personnally Lusternia is getting a little boreing to me because of all the PK... and the steriotypical Good vs Evil thing thats cropping up... There needs to be a third party, it used to be Serenwilde, but now Glomdoring is there, and its an even match of good city, good nature, evil city, evil nature... there needs to be something somewhere that has the capacity to throw a wrench into all four of those philosophys, then things would get interesting again *cough*Half Tainted Ackleberry!*Cough*

Anyways, as for the history stuff, and things that occured in the past... I've read OLD history books IRL and comparing them to modern ones, and its hilarious the differences you find in them... The things that are just absolutely and completely wrong now, but back then they were set in stone...

Making those initial assertions, and letting the ball roll from there, is what history is all about, it might be set in stone if you had a crystal ball to see exactly what happened back then, but history is all about the interpretation and the prior conception of it... Even if its misconception *grins*

Let people start argueing against the history you make, get people to go off on a tirade, make the history conflicting with something that would screw up a bunch of stuff *Cough*Celest/Seren Alliance?*Cough* And let Serenwilde fume about it, and make things go all outa whack, so things get interesting again!...

Thats my take on it