That may all be true, however you are addressing your comments to the wrong person. These should be concerns for organisation leaders. You see, novices don't always go about things in the most optimal and productive way. They don't always ask the right questions at the right times. That's what makes them novices. It's up to the more experienced characters to nudge them in the right direction.

Nobody is trying to force people into helping novices if they don't want to, it's just you have to accept that if you don't try and include people in your organisation then many of them will end up leaving and joining an organisation that does make them feel welcome. If you're ok with that then fine. I don't want to sound like I am whining, because I am not. I don't plan to leave Glomdoring because I enjoy the imagery and the rp potential of the commune. I am doing fine on my own and each day I learn more things about the lands.

Perhaps I haven't put it into words very well, but what I am really talking about is inclusion, being made to feel a part of something bigger and more important than yourself. The things I listed about being shown quests and such were just examples of this. I am not saying you should hold every novices hand or spoon feed them all the information they need. However I think it's important for the senior characters to at least try and interact with novices in some small way. This doesn't necessarily have to be training or practical advice, just passing the time of day, or a few words of encouragement here and there would be good. Novices need to look up to and admire their leaders, and this form of contact can go a long way to fostering that kind of respect.

Here's an example from another game I used to play several years ago. My novice character was taken hunting by a group of senior characters from the city. Half way through the hunt they decided to go raid an enemy city and I got dragged along. It was extremely confusing, with a whole lot of scroll that I didn't understand, and it ended with my character being left in enemy territory because they forgot about me! The group then had to fight their way back into the enemy city to rescue my character. Now I didn't really learn much from the experience, but it made me, a green and pretty useless novice, feel a part of the city and the wider conflict. These characters were my heroes and they took me to fight alongside them, and my character never forgot this experience. I have also experienced this from the other side, where characters, even those who became enemies, would react positively to my character because of some good turn I had done them years earlier when they were novices.

I would think the same would be true of Lusternia, so really I am just saying to the senior characters, please take the time to interact with your novices a bit more. Don't just sit back and wait for them to ask questions all the time, but remember you are their heroes and mentors, and it's your duty to inspire them to follow in your footsteps for the greater glory of your guild/city/commune.

Sounds to me Tarik like perhaps maybe your timing was just a bit off.. I know of some people in each guild who seem to derive enjoyment and spend a good deal of time assisting novices but as Gerald listed sometimes its best to make yourself known and ask for help specifically because Glomdoring is a very busy place and much work is yet still to be done.. we dont have the luxury of other orgs to be setup and relatively smooth running in how our day to day lives will progress.. constantly Glomdoring is still evolving and shaping into its own so you'll find some of us are always running from one place to the next completing the next task..

That being said I've had young ones contact me over tells and ask questions and I'm more than happy to answer any question, no matter how stupid it may be. Even youngins from other guilds contact me.. most people I believe expect it when you become a figurehead in an organization that being are going to look up to you and ask questions assuming you know the answers.

Basically just poke your head out there and nudge a few people.. people like me, Aurella, Xenthos, Etanru, Tharruk.. always willing to help no matter what your guild, and unless your question is way guild specific we can prolly help you if no one in your guild currently can. Sometimes you just have to be active in seeking help but its out there.

And a lot of us do take time to interact with our novices, but not enough. This is why the Geomancers are currently undergoing a massive revamp in their Paths system (For the 2nd time now) in order to increase interaction with the the younger Geomancers, therefore attempting to make more of the players active. I'm sure other guilds are taking steps to become more open and interactive with the lifeblood of Lusternia as well. As for inspiring the youth to follow our footsteps, it is much easier said than done. There has to be an extremely strong motive behind that youth in order to attain the greater glory - inspiration itself is not sufficient. This motive, is something the heroes and mentors have no control over, and never will. However, this doesn't mean we're not trying to inspire them though.

I'm feeling really lazy, and only skimmed through the posts after the first one (sorry, everyone!)...

But I'd just like to say that I'll offer to help novices out and rarely get a response from many of them. I've maybe successfully helped one novice, and I feel bad because I can't remember his name, but I'm always available to help out if any of the younger ones need it. It's just... a lot of them either need it but are too ... I don't know, afraid, to respond to a tell from an undersecretary asking them if they understand everything and need help?

But as lots of people were saying, part of it is your job, too. Asking for help will at least get you attention... just a simple 'help?' would do to grab mine, unless I was busy researching and writing my assignments or something.

I think novices who read and ask questions based off of what they read or on things that weren't present in their readings are adorable. Josun would never admit it in a thousand years, of course... but he does like people lots.

I think the biggest mistake that novices make is not reading the help files. I'm sorry but i run across to many that just want to be spoon fed, and not have to read. When i was a novice i went straight to ghelp index, chelp index, and a few other help files. This is what i show my novices. I do not give them the awnser when they are as capable to find it as me. And guess what normalyl when you go threw thsoe files you learn where thigns are, what to hunt, and about skills and stuff.

That's the expression I was looking for. I just couldn't think of it.
Reminds me of a time when a novice entered the guild, and I told him to read the appropriate GHELP files. Two seconds later he gave me a reply saying, "Done." I told him politely to read it thoroughly. 2 seconds later he said "Done." again. I simply said, "Very well."

A minute later was asking questions over GNT that was easily answerable if he read the help files. We'll give him the answer, tell him to PLEASE read the help files, which he never did. That was a painful day.

SuperFrog, my respect for you has gone up a bajillion points (not that it was especially low to begin with, but anyway). I love people who go to ghelp and chelp index... I myself do that too.

I find it to be a bit of a mixed batch in Glomdoring. As a novice, I have people in the Blacktalon asking if I am ok every 5 minutes to the point of frustration. Then, on the other hand, I can rarely get an answer on the commune channel.

*Shrug*

I will make one quick comment though. I've yet have anyone tell me about ghelp/chelp index since I came here. In fact, if I havn't learned it some 3 years ago in Achaea (and that only said once by a person in passing) I would've NEVER knew about it in all of the IRE games I played.

I can see not realy stressing it for novices (good god there's enough they need to read on help files) but it realy needs to be a told command for every person that has past novicehood.

In fact, it's only JUST now that I learned about Clanhelp.

One suggestion, Try the Ur'guard as an alt, you'll find a heap of good help files, and a swag of people willing to help you out AND we are strict about it.

I figured that if we are strict, then we must train hard from an IC perspective....kind of like boot camp really

Since Aebrin has become Guild Admin, he has been implementing a new leadership system for the Celestines.

You'll notice that the Celestines have no Undersecretaries.

Aebrin requires that all his novice aides are active and are willing to work. Unfortunately none have been ready to take either position.

However, in his approach of new novices, he would always be willing to help. However, rather than attacking a novice and saying "Have you done this?" or "You should do this" and "Here let me show you everything", he has taken the approach to allow the novice take responsibility of their own learning. Thus he would suggest to the lower ranked to give the novice the standard novice intro and then to give options to the novice on where to go next. Rather than keeping tabs on the novices as if they're 3 year olds, he would allow them to go on their way, but to say on GNT once in a while to let people know if they need help.

This way, it lets the novice discover things for themselves and also if there's a problem, they're constantly reminded that there are people there who would help them.

He really hates, however, those rare novices who wants everything handed to them spoonfed. Those novices who cry "Oh I have no clue" even though you have told them 3 times and those novices who go "Where is this, take me!" The essence is to take responsibility for your own learning, because if the novice keep going "I need help even though I've been told many times" they're going to keep not knowing. I have had a GR1, out of novicehood for ages, who asked the following questions:

"What is the Star of Celest?" (Valid, but would have expected them to know by then)
"Who are the Supernals?" (Again valid, but also would have expected them to know)
"What are the Celestines?" (Yes I have had that question.)

However, as stated, even though there are no actual Novice Aides, there are lots of people who are willing to help, but not spoonfeed.

And therefore:

Join the Celestines

No, join the nihilists, we love our novices!

How bout back off our novices ya damn vultures!

I'm afraid that I'm going to have to concur with Syrienne. Myself being an Australian player, and the leader of Glomdoring, I find that when I'm around (during my main playing time), it's mainly older players that I see, but when I stay up late, there's a, (Note: Technical Term for groups of Novices), a bajillion novices around. I do my best to help when not busy organising stuff for later, for the commune, but, almost constantly, whenever I make any sort of comment over CT, I am given at least three questions, and I find it bloody fantastic that people are taking the initiative with such things. Again, long as you find the right people, you'll do fine. (Hope)


I love it when they do research, and if a points not clear, they ask you, it's the best sort of novice. Right next to one that tells you your the best Newbie Helper ever. (Yea, happened to me. )



Once you show them the Indexii(que?), then a lot of potential problems are solved.
Some of the best tips I can give to newbie helpers, would be to explain the Help File systems, (C/G Helps, and normal Helps), and explain how to message, and tell people questions, then, they can get their own help if your not available.

The subject of handling novices is quite difficult really. Right now most guilds, (from what I've seen) seem to still have the 24 hours and your good system for novices. I have proposed to my own guild a system of novice requirements, and while often reqs may seem stringent, that is the whole point. In a game like lusternia, there is SO MUCH that must be learned in order to have a good idea of whats going on. simple things such as what pipes are used for, bashing, gaining gold, karma, equipment, hell, telling novices that they can jab twice(so overlooked) by setting clear goals that a novice must complete, you encourage them to ask the RIGHT quiestions, rather than *can I go to the bathroom? or is that afk* the newbie channel is great, but a lot of newer novices seem to get caught up in technicalities, and I cringe everytime I see one of our novices ask on market for swords, when we often have 10 or 15 blades and armour laying around our guildhall for novices to make use of. Also, teaching them how to bash is so crucial. I have organized and led a few different expeditions around the basin, showing novices where to hunt at what levels, what kind of afflicitions mobs can do, how to cure them, the incredible importance of the shield ability in lowmagic, (for us serenwilders) when bashing at lower levels, and I hope to be able to show them earth, but I get a lot of resistance. but soon I hope to start organizing basin -wide novice tours, for those of any and all guilds/cities/communes, to both give them valuable information, as well as gain them exp.
Another important thing for novices to learn is the power quests for his/her nexus. These often get overlooked, as in most cases novices cant link to a nexus, so why even bother (as I thought as a novice) I think creating a set list of goals consisting of quest knowledge, how to walk from place to place, sufficient knowledge of cures (how many times did I have to have someone come give me pennyroyal) how to use thir equipment, and general views of the guild and city/cmmune itself, would greatly increase the enjoyment of our novices, and help to create a more stable player base for when us old-farts head off to the retirement home.

I believe it's more the "Newton or Bust" sentimentality of alot of elders (even mentors) that is an issue, rather than directing Newbies to use Newton as a facet of their training.

Newbies don't ask enough questions.

Novices expect things to be given to them. (Free armer plz)

Novices are not usually told to read chelp index and ghelp index. Some older people don't even know about those.

There was also a thread about how wonderful Glomdoring novices were treated. So nyah.

Novices, however, do not get enough support.

I'm trying to change that, in my guild, by putting helpfule people where they need to be, making sure everyone has mentors, and revamping our formerly confusing helpfiles.

If you need help from me in game, you'll usually get an "I'm busy" unless you're family, a god, or a protege. Even them sometimes. That's why there are secretaries and undersecretaries.

Lastly, a tip I find useful... Asking someone in person rather than over channels or in tells works much better. I tend to be more helpful if you're standing next to me, instead of if you're talking in tells. Don't ask why, but its probably the same reason why I'd rather talk to you in person instead of over the phone.

Yea,that sounds about right. My guild is constanting checking in on the novices. So I always know someone is around.

This may be a tad off topic. But, I would be nice if we had some more RP-type novice events. Maybe on days that there are several novices online someone could hold a novice lecture or discussion on some commune/guild-specific lore, healing, the gods, etc. Or, maybe a few hunting trips where hunting technique is discussed and used and all of the corpses are sacrificed or exchanced for gold? Also, the guild I started out held novice quizes ever so often too. I thought that was fun.

Agreed, more attention must be paid to the novices. They are the future of the game, what keeps it running. All of us were novices once.

Actually thats not true... a good portion of people were never novices.