I've just come across the story of a former diplomat for Great Britain in Uzbekistan, who was sacked for protesting against the Foreign Office working with a regime that violates Human Rights and excercises torture as an everyday part of their intelligence gathering and court system.

Needless to say, I'm horrified.

Here's some material on it:

A wikipedia article on the diplomat and his story

This week's interview with him in BBC Radio 4 (On The Ropes)

A transscript of one of his protest speeches (long but worth the reading)

Was this being discussed in public? I couldn't remember if I ever heard about it before and it's obviously not the kind of thing you forget easily... Is it naive to ask how things like this can happen without causing a public uproar? I'm disturbed...

Discuss.

I agree with your sentiments of disgust, but maybe I'm just a little more disillusioned with the state of the world; this doesn't surprise me.

Unfortunately, it doesn't surprise me either. (much). Still it's... frightening.

When Libya is the head of the UN Human rights comission, and the Hague can call a Wall that has been prove to protect human lives, a crime against humanity, I have no faith in claims of "human rights" violations.

ESPECIALLY when prisoners have been quoted as saying "We were given orders to make any complaints agaisnt western countries as possible, no matter how nicely we were treated, to cause discent amonst the populations"

Such a cynical view. It makes me sad when someone refuses to believe everything they hear, simply because one person says someone else said. Quotes are easily forged - especially when we're talking about said western countries whom are being bad-mouthed globally, even by their own allies - (France, Germany, Downing Street Memos). I imagine lieing about alleged WMDs and Al-Qaida connections is not far from lieing about prisoner's quotes, now is it?

I imagine any western country would take the same steps - it would make them look not nearly as bad to have a third party claim the second party was told to make outrageous complaints against the first, to discredit them.

Anyway, my point is. Just because Person A lies, does not mean Persons B and C lie. And just because Person A lies about Western Country A, B, or C does not mean Persons D, E, and F do, too.

Cynicism is not the only outlook on life! Smile a bit!

Who said anything about lieing?

Its very clear to me that those who complain loudest about "Human rights violations" have completely forgotten what a Human right's violation is.

Comparing Cuba to the Goolach in Siberia, or Nazi Death camps prooves to me they have no concept of right and wrong, but rather are looking to line their pockets with lawyer fees and the like.

I'm going to guess that these TERRIBLE crimes include the worst thing that could happen to a human such as a lawyer who isn't paid $500 an hour in the courtroom available to represent them and call media groups to buy thier story, or maybe something as nasty as being forced to watch a video which preaches an opinion they don't like.

I don't think anybody was lying about that quote either, especially when you look at the full facts about the complaints being registered.

For example, you have one law that people are citing that states you can't hold a person prisoner without charging them, then when you deport them to thier home country and set them free, they complain that the country your sending them to has a low standard of living.

Let me just clarify something... I'm not saying that its a bad idea to treat prisoners a bit better, or that you probabbly should not do terrible things to people especially when you capture them in large groups at the same time, however, calling them "Human Right's Violations" and screaming bloody murder to the press, instead of working in a way that doesn't compromise important steps (in this case, having a working relationship with Uzbekistan) to me, makes such claims illegitmate, and probablly does more harm than good in the long run.

Especially since it makes people like me, agree with people who I would never want to agree with.

Human rights, in a legal United Nations sense, are very much cut and dry. Some are worse than others, sure, but we are all in theory meant to be treated at or above a certain standard.

Having visited Cuba a few times in the past couple years, as well as living in an extremely large navy and airforce town, I can't say the word on said prison encampment is a very positive one. You're right, comparing them to Nazi concentration camps is a very nasty comparison. You'ld be better off comparing them to the Japanese internment camps we sent thousands of American citizens of Japenese heritage to, where many people did not live for very long, in cramped quarters and living in much the same environment. Their ideals and ways of life were disrupted, property and lives destroyed.

Not to mention the fat check these people were payed by the American gov't to keep quiet, neh? Now-a-days, as Miss Twitty Holloway has learned, more noise means a better chance of something being done. Calling it a nazi concentration camp is a bit extreme, but it's drawn mass media attention to it - to something that is, indeed, a human right's violation in multiple manners across the board.

I've seen a few of your posts, and you've come across as perhaps slightly Christian, Daganev. Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhap's you're just a staunch Republican. Either way, can you imagine being so devout to your religion that you believe taking your life, and taking the unbelievers with you, is one of the highest honors you may ever achieve? That you would be assured a place in the highest circles of Heaven, where you will be attended by a multitude of beautiful virgins and lavished upon for eternity - when your life is filled with misery and torment, a reflection of the desolate wasteland you've grown up in, where, in the day, the temperatures sky-rocket to well above anything a normal human can stand for a few hours without clothing - if they're strong and well hydrated. And then, at night, temperatures can drop to ungodly lows. It's a land where water is scarce, or far too abundant. Where it floods regularly if there is water, more of a curse than a salvation. A place where, for as long as you can remember, you've been ruled by tribal warlords or dictators who's sanity is not my place to judge.

And then, you're hauled off by a bunch of strange white men that invaded your country, killed off your family, and marked them down as something called "collateral damage" - they've destroyed your government, and stuck you in a chain-link fence somewhere on an island. Your absolute most holy book, something that is comparable to a canteen of water in the desert or the last torch in the darkness, that last saving grace for naught but a few moments before the cold winter sets in, and with it, the rabid beasts that lurk in the shadows, that last jar of oil to the Macabees. It's their saving grace, and their belief in salvation, it's their guiding force through these times of trial and tribulation, where the infidels and heretics are punishing you for your faith to your God.

And then, they piss on your torch, keeping it from lighting - they kick your jar of oil over, they empty out your canteen. Honestly, how much more do you think these people can take? It's going to be a sad day when a couple of these prisoners manage what the african slaves did in the Caribbean. You don't see that many whites in Haiti, now do you? Perhaps it was because, despite being out gunned, they definately out-numbered their french masters - and, with clevers, machetes, knives, wet cloth and rope, they butchered, gutted, sliced, choked and hang every white person they could find.

Basically, my point is - you don't piss these people off. They manage to hijack a couple of planes and destroy a decent chunk of Manhattan. They blow up trains in Madrid, subways and a bus in London. They're out-gunned, but they're definately not out-manned. As I said in another thread, if China put every man, woman and child they had to the effort, they could probably make lead into gold. They don't need the resources - they have raw man power. Short of mass genocide, you will never, ever stop them from fighting. So let's at least treat them bloody decently, and hope we can curb the wrath of a few.

Daganev is Jewish, but otherwise I agree .

Yeah, talking to the wrong man about this, I'm very well aware of the 2,000 year history of the middle east, the people in it, and the affects the geography has on people and thier mindset. I'm also very well aware of such muslim populations such as the bedoins (sp?) who live a traditional life with goats and tents made out of homespun cloth, who use a special type of plant to wash themselves and thier clothes with without water, and how from 9-5 the head of the family heads into the nearest big city which has nice internet connections and satelite TV to make a living so that the rest of his family can continue to live in this traditonal life style.

Muslims and Arabs are not savages who have no concept of the west. To the contrary, the ones who desire the world wide Islamic state have spent the last 40 years learning from the west, seeing where we are weak, and where we are strong. Seeing how far we will go to win our causes, and what they can do to us to get us to break.

Almost all religions say that if you die in the name of your religion and spreading your ideals that you will go to some kind of heaven with pleasures that you can not even describe, yet MOST sane people arn't going around declaring war on anyone different from themselves.

Do you know anything of the culture of the middle east, the nature of strength and honour and what is considered to be a sign of weakness? You think the terrorists are people clinging to the last vestiges of thier way of life, widly lashing out in whatever way they can? The truth is probabbly more likely to be that you have cold calculating businessmen and pyschologists and engeneers who since the mid 1960s have been trying to find the best way to bring down those who challenge thier ability to rule the world as the Ottoman empire once did, and how the Mongolians did, and the Persians did centuries ago.


Now for the point... Your complaining about countries that are doing not nice things while they stop people from doing REAL Human Rights Violations... such as death because of political assosiation, or death because of religious or racial differences.

Its said in the Talmud that anyone who embarrases another person is as if he had killed them. (Because the blood rushes out of his face, and its something you can't ever take back) ... Now imagine someone Blaming the Tabloid newspapers for Murder, (and demading they be put in jail for life) because they showed an image of some famous person in thier undewear?

Yes there are things that you should not do, and should probably work to fix them, but comparing a Tabloid to Murder, is basically what these "Human rights" groups are doing in our day and age, and its doing more harm than good.

What you're saying is, we should forget about the violations of countries like America, Australia and Russia and focus on places such as China and the Middle East? That is how it is coming across, and that is ridiculous. Locking people up without charges for indefinate periods of time and justifying it in the name of the greater good - whatever that is - doesn't make it ok.

No, I'm saying that if you have a problem with thieves, you don't call all thieves mass murderers and use the tactis to solve mass murder.

Believe it or not, its possible for governments and organizations to focus on more than one issue at at time. For example... take Live8, its working on hunger... its not working on terrorism or anarchy issues in Africa, just hunger, and its doing the appropriate (arguably) type of campaings to get people into the hunger issue.

If people would call a Spade a Spade it would be much easier to come to a consensus on issues.

Also, I think the way African tribes treat eachother is much more of an issue than China or the Middle east (Save the terrorism problem, which I think isn't really a middle east issue)

In the case of this article.. really which is worse? Questionable interview tactics? Or a country that was once helping you with a world wide problem, suddenly working against you because you hurt thier ego?

Human rights is an umbrella term for a whole heap of things, genocide and war crimes are only a few. I'm not saying that indefinite detention is as bad was some other things that happen, but it is still a violation of those declarations the world, or at least a large part of it, agreed to uphold.

For example, taking just one of the human rights, as cited here, we can see that America is infact in breach of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights under Article 5 which states



Considering that America is part of the United Nations as a member of the Security Council, and of course the General Assembly, don't you think they should adhere to agreements they co-sign?

This is just one example. I could point out others to do with many countries.

See, I honestly don't care how they run their country. I'm just offended by the fact we're going over there, and forcing them to come here, subject them to our rules, but deny them our rights. We given hispanics that come from Cuba 10,000 dollars out of our social security, and instant U.S. citizenship - this is something hard-working czek students have been sent back to Czekland over, because the 'crats are just fiddling away the hours.

And, what you've tried to do is simply what I've tried doing. In Talmud it is essentially murder - a defemation of honor. A violation of something so sacred to them. Something that, indeed, cannot be taken back. It's a sociological thing. It's how their culture is, their beliefs are, tieing into religion etc.

And, I'm fully aware how I describe the Middle East, and, indeed, there are people out there plotting now and have been for many decades. I do not doubt they've been at it through various methods, and we'd all be fools if we didn't believe they could, right now, put an overwhelming hurt on us by playing their trump cards (the oil industry).

But, for the vast majority, these people are not living in anything remotely like "decent" conditions, and a lot of these people, especially in Iraq, are coming from horrible lives and were basically told, blow yourselves up, and you'll be given a place in Heaven - and you help Islam, and bring great honor to your family. No, I'm no specialist in Islam, nor the social comings and goings and status of honor in Talmud. I have a fair idea, as I try to have about most things I get into discussions over. It has been made out, at least to me, as something that happened to Drizzt. His family fell upon great dishonor for failure to kill him - so his mother sacrificed her "daughter" (actually the Matron of another house that her own had defeated, but was appointed to her by the Matron of the First House) instead of the expected sacrifice of her patriarch. This pleased Lloth greatly. To bring things back into perspective, these boys (that's what a lot of them are, nothing more than gullible, deluded children. At least, the ones blowing themselves up) are seeking to gain their family great honor and respect by killing infidels and traitors to Islam. We'd revere any American that ran into a large group of enemy combatants and took down 30, 40, 50 of them before dieing himself. We'd call him a great hero.

I guess we're getting off base here. What you or I would consider inhumane (I honestly don't care if you piss on the Quran or wipe your arse with the Torah - if you clean your toilet seat with pages of the Bible, or if you blow your nose on the Constitution) may not be inhumane to them - and things inhumane to them, things that would utterly destroy their morals and sense of judgement (or just sense in general?) may seem stupid to us. Embarassing these men by making them stand, naked, in a room with a woman, by torturing them (dear gods is it torture) with Christina Aguilara music, by ruining things they hold in the highest regard.. I mean, they don't bother me (except the music), and I can take a lot of embarassment. But I realize not everyone's as much as a sadist as I am.

I guess, if the tables were turned, would you appreciate them throwing the Torah in fecal matter? That is, if you're jewish. Or if you're staunchly patriotic, would you mind if I relieve myself on the Constitution? I'm sure some people in France (not to mention just about any Arab nation) would consider it an act that would bring me much honor.

Basically what I'm getting back to is, keep in mind, inhumane to them may not be inhumane to you or I. Although I think we can all agree Christina Aguilara music is disgustingly obscene, and that trash should not even be purchased by the Military, nonetheless used in torture techniques. Of course, that explains why she keeps coming out with albums.

I'd like to point out, as Quidgy did, that keeping people locked up for indeffinate periods of time for uncertain if not unexistant reasons, is quite inhumane. I mean, the war's over. You're calling them POWs, now. From what war...? The War on Terrorism? Great. We're waging war on Bush's lack of genital assurance, and need for over compensation.

And, you're talking about the tribes in Africa - you're right! We should do something. I mean, look at Dafur. We've not done a damn thing to protect them from the Saudi's, even though they're bent on genocide and extinction. Oh, wait, forgot - the Saudi's control our Oil, and have heavy ties to Osama Bin Ladin. We can't piss them off. Let's let people die because...?

And, as you said, let's call a spade a spade. Is the U.S. suddenly the world's police force?

If so, I want to know when everyone's going to get a vote in who their sheriff is. Because I think the 49% that voted with me on the so-called "liberal agenda", or more correctly against the "war agenda" would not mind teaming up with nearly the entire population of the REST of the world, and not only vote Bush out of office, but off the planet. Let's begin colonizing Mars - Bush wanted exploration, let's do one better! He and his ignorant hick reactionary oil-mongers can start their own village up there. We'll send some migrants up there, as well, to be their lackies, and they may begin to drill everywhere, in hopes of finding oil.

If we are going to police the world as some form of "righteous good", the "protectors of freedom and democracy everywhere", I believe it only fair we let these people have a say in the government that will thusly be leading them. I hope Iraq gets the right to vote in '08. I believe they'll join me in voting Hillary into office, with Oprah Winfrey as the VP. See? They're amicable people. Of course, as soon as we remove the, what, 120,000 some US troops in Iraq, this might change a little.

If we're going to be the World Police, fine. I just want to know when we're going to deal with serious threats. Like Kim Jong Il, who is, undeniably, protecting his own country - and in a damn good way, too. By building nuclear weapons, and saying "Hey, I've got 'em." Who do you think is honestly going to attack him? By removing them, it's like opening the portcullis to his castle, while throwing all his weapons into the moat beside him. Not too smart.

And, as I said before, the Dafurians that are suffering genocide in numbers truely comparable to the concentration camps of Hitler's regime. Also, we need to rethink our environmental policy - it was us that forced the other nations to scale back the restrictions on pollution, and not anybody else. As well, we need to place a couple batallions and maybe a fleet of battle cruisers around Japan - they're continueing to whale the seas there.

Also, did I mention Australia? They've got lots of uninhabitable land. Something must be there. Probably Sadam's WMDs.

This is exactly why the proper action is to remove the conditions of neglect and rebuild the country in a fashion that gives people equality and the ability to rule themselves. You can't fight a nation of zombies, so the only thing to do, is to remove the structure that creates the zombies, and allow the humans to replace the undead.

See, in the example of the Talmud, while on the same page it says That Embarassment is like Murder, it says that the punishment for Embarassment is a Fine, while the punishment for death is Murder. This is true in Islam as well as most places that have religious ideas that if taken to the extreme lead to a society that you can not live in without fear of death.

As John Stewart said when the U.S congressman compared the Cubat prison to the Nazis... "In Germany, Sh ting on yourself in shackles was a good day, waves of cheers could be heard in the camps.. "Its Shackles Day! Its Shackles Day!"

I'm sorry for being such a tough guy (yeah right) but I havn't seen or heard of anything that I would consider cruel or torture punishment. Sure its bad, and its been investigated and the people responcible have been punished, because its innapropriate and not something you want to be done, but its not close to torture.

I would much rather have people using the constitution as a fecal rag, or burn flags in large crowds then have them binding and torturing people as was done in Vietnam or WWII or Korea, or any previous war where such things were done.

While Stewart is a Democrat, and thusly superior to all forms of Republican banter, one cannot deny he is not the smartest creature to crawl forth from a woman's loins.

I'd also like to point out that, with the Patriot Act, only, what, 4 people have been prosecuted? We're not finding terrorists in the MAJORITY of those people in Gitmo. Most of them were just herded off the streets, and simply became numbers and statistics to make the Oil Party look better, to justify the War Which Should Not Have Been. And those people will remain there for an indefinate period of time. Because they've not admitted to being terrorists, and have not converted to christianity yet.

And, for a good laugh, at times like these, I ask myself - WWBMD. And the term "face-stabbing" comes to mind.

What war is over?



Yes, the UN who said they would take care of the situation once again was thwarted by the Saudi Oil Industry... whats your point?

The UN specifically said they would sent thier own troops, and did so.
And, as you said, let's call a spade a spade. Is the U.S. suddenly the world's police force?

The U.S. is not the World Police, as much as the creators of Southpark would like to say we are, the U.S is concerned about the lives of the U.S. citizens and the lives of allies and the general world condition. As you said, The enemies live in a country where -Was- no hope of indepedance, or good living condidtions, and were brainwashed as children to go do terrible things to the "opressors", however they were lied to about who the opressors were. The Strategy therefore is to use various methods, such as negotiations in Saudi Arabia, or War in Iraq to change those text books and living conditions for people.

You can't fight a war of information if you have no control over what information people have access to, and when reality has no bearing on the information (as seen most clearly by "Baghdad Bob") sometimes more drastic measures need to be taken.



Cute, but that shows a clear lack of understanding of the facts and reality of whats going on... and I get my detailed information from NPR who does their best to spin things against the U.S.


Umm sure, but your mixing issues. You think environemntal policies have any affect on the war created by Terrorist groups to bring down western society? Kim Jung Il? Bringing up things that have nothing to do with the situation is exactly the problem I'm talking about. Theres no sense anymore of perspective or how things are truely related. The U.S could make ALL thier policies the same as Europe's and the Jihadists would still be attacking the U.S and other western countries. In fact they have been for the past 40 years. But much like Pearl Harbor, the U.S cared less about the rest of the world untill it affected them directly.


I recently read a book written in 1973... If I didn't know better I would say it was written last week.