So.. having a Lusternian contact me over aim to alert me to any in game issues would be similar to say..feeding me illegal stock tips?!

Um, if you don't see this as a game you really need to take a step back away from your computer.

First thing you need to do is turn your head down to your real, fleshy body. Next, realize you're sitting in front of your computer putting in commands with a keyboard. At this moment, you may realize that you are not the character you play.

In fact, you may come to realize that Lusternia isn't a real place, and instead it is fabricated and wholly digital. You may also realize that you are... in essence... playing a huge game of "Let's Pretend!" with other people.

Of course, if you wanted other people to play "Pretend" with you what would a kid say? "Hey! Billy, we're playing Knights and Mages, wanna be a Mage? *brandishes a twig* This is my wand!"

And from there "Billy" joins or doesn't. I don't care how many kids there are, it is still a game to them in the back of their mind. As an adult, Billy may become an actor, but you're not going to stay "in character" all your life. You may speak with an accent all day to be prepped for a role, granted, but sheesh... even actors realize it isn't real even when they're on the set.

Its a game, period. I'm a gamer and I know my games. Lusternia is a game... not a lifestyle. If you can't get this... you really need help.

I think you miss my point entirely. Treating Lusternia as a "game" in the same sense that one treats Counter Strike or Starcraft as games devalues the medium. When aspects of the environment no longer constitute win-loss conditions, and the importance of these aspects are stressed by the mechanics with equal (or intendedly equal) propensity, the game state is transcended. I'm certainly not claiming it is any more real than any game is, nor should participants treat the circumstances that may develop in the world with any greater emotional advocacy than they might playing CS (although they very often do, and this is a design choice intended to promote loyalty, moreso than a consequence of the medium itself).

That being said, I understand that as a "gamer" it is your base instinct to treat the world as any other game you would normally encounter. You want to win, I completely understand that. To some degree, everyone wants to win at something, and the world addresses this desire through the gameable aspects it stresses. I play RTS and FPS games a lot myself, I'd certainly consider myself a "gamer" also. But it's a base conclusion to advocate a richly designed environment like Lusternia as nothing more notable than a game, in the same sense that a well-written novel is just a book.

Treating Lusternia like a game is exactly like going to the movies and saying stuff throughout the movie like "Hey, that scene was cool, you couldn't even see the wires! Did you know the real reason that guy died is because they had to shorten his role so he could be on that TV show on Fox? Oh, I bet that car was real even if the flames were CGI. They should so have gotten that other actor for it, except the director can't stand him."

Treating Lusternia like a world is like going to the movies and actually watching the damned story.

Both approaches are equally true, but only one is stupid.

What Gwylifar said. I agree.

Lets break this down.

What do we do with games people? We play them. I don't care what the hell kinda' game it is, from some sort of sport to Role Playing... you play them. There is no logic in saying that you don't play your games.

Apparently, Rhysus, you missed -my- entire point, particularly when you tell me I'm playing "Lusternia to win". Don't be daft. I don't know where you get this, but this isn't even the argument I'm making.

Gwylifar... you watch a damn movie. Just like you play a game. You -don't talk during a movie-. That had to be one of the single worst examples I've seen in a long time.

Apparently everyone is interpreting "playing" as "winning". You've gotta' be kidding me. Since when did this come up? I don't know what you guys think Lusternia is, but I'm telling -you- it is a game. And I don't know where you guys have been either, because Lusternia has several situations where you do indeed "win".

You fall into a pit with a Gravedigger. You die.

Okay, but the core mechanics are that you 'lost' and you're 'punished' for losing by taking away EXP.

"But James, you're taking away from the expeeeerieeeeeence!!" *insert whiny voice*. No I'm not, because all these mechanics are in there in a more subtle form. I'd like to meet someone that cheered when they died and had EXP taken away.

Those of you that died at the hands of Revan, Murphy, etc... did you feel a sudden rush of happiness when your body hit the ground? Hmm? Anyone? Or who cheered for the other city when you lost an Influencing skirmish?

I don't -have- to tell you there are "win/lose" situations in Lusternia because they're all there. I mean, seriously, a game isn't only winning or losing. And calling something a game doesn't make it less fun either. A game's a game, and Lusternia is a game and it is damn fun to play.

Why? 'Cause one PLAYS games. Take away the playing and only add the "winning/losing" you have sports watchers (even sports is a game if you play it). Games are about the experience, and this is -more- true for some than others. That isn't my argument.

I'm saying that if you want to invite other people to experience a game, so be it.

I don't think Gwylifar's was a bad example - you took it too literally. It wasn't about the talking through a movie, it was about VIEWING the movie as a set of actors, fakes, wires, and stuff, rather than as a storyline. Similarly you can either VIEW the game as a storyline, or you can view it as a set of mathematical formulae and coding...scripts. (Or whatever.)

I play Lusternia as a bunch of texts that I read, nothing more! It's incredibly immersive for me to just visualize everything on my screen as a result of a bunch of 0 and 1 produced by a machine. How else would you play a Mud?

No, that's only -half- of what I'm saying. I'm getting people telling me Lusternia isn't a game and calling it a game is killing the experience.

Kinda' not what I'm saying. A movie is a movie. You watch movies, and you play games. You might watch a movie and forget you're watching a movie, and you might play a game and forget you're playing a game...

... but.... wait for it.... the ultimate reality is that you're sitting in some sort of seat in some sort of screen... therefore ultimately making it a game or movie no matter what. That's all I'm saying.

I think the OOC stuff is alot more like the infamous "table talk". Card players will know what I am talking about here. It is both bad gamesmanship and infuriating to those who have to play against people like that.

Point in case. IRC and this last event. Rhysus and I agree to not play the Dwarves game and let the stalemate sit. Person A asks to be told IG about it and a moment later Person B responds with 'There I told you'. Person B using the line 'I have spies who tell me' as their excuse for why "table talk" is an ok thing.

The whole contact me on AIM, MSN, whichever does not bother me so much as that abuse of OOC information does. I can handle the fact that someone logs off and they get a message saying "hey come on, this is happening." It is their choice to log back on afterall.

What I can't stand is when information is being found out in an ooc fashion and being handed to another IC and a weak excuse for RP is being used to cover it.

I have a table top game where I storytell, as I mentioned, and this is more like that than a card game. The storyteller ultimately makes up the rules and who's heard from who. Lusternia has those same limitations, but I do agree with the latter part completely. Inviting people good, working through the game -out- of the game isnt' cool.

I dunno if anyone said it cause I didn't read most of the posts, but you can hardly call what Murphy does unfair.

Unfair would be Lusternia being designed so that every time a village revolted, half the denizens were auto influenced by Magnagora.

There are always some people who play games more hardcore than others, but you can't really call that unfair.

That something is true does not mean it isn't stupid, or doesn't miss the whole point of the exercise. Nor does it refute that the other viewpoint is also true, and does not miss the point of the exercise.

Did you know when you're doing a crossword puzzle, in addition to the "read the clues and figure out the answers" approach, there's another approach, called "look in the back and copy the letters over", that is not only much faster and easier but invariably produces better results?

Did you also know that the makers of the magazine also don't appreciate a "tag-team" approach to a game, in which the puzzled calls over friends to help him figure out the riddle before him.

You also shouldn't do anything silly, like call a friend up and say "Hey, I know you weren't planning on doing this, but there's this event going on down the street and I thought you might be interested in joining in. Want to come?"

Actually, things like that occur all the time. I've been called several times by my friends because some event randomly showed up, such as headin' out to the movies or chillin' at the ballpack.

And when I was little, I used to ask my friends that all the time. Any kid in my day would have done that ('course, now they have the internet and consoles to keep them inside...)

You missed the /sarcasm tag. Apparently I hid it too well- curse me!

I find it more like betting on a boxing match, then calling in your buddies to rough up the guy you bet against during the match, and not getting caught somehow.

How so? Maybe if your analogy had "they jump into the ring and rough up the person you bet against in the middle of the match..." When they log in (both the calling and the logging in are OOC actions, just as calling up a buddy and say "Hey, I got these two tickets to a boxing match, let's go" is not part of the experience of watching two people beat each other with gloves) they have to get involved in the action.

I suppose I do not see the difference between logging in because I could not sleep, or because I heard something was happening... both are OOC reasons for logging in, and either way, I am playing Lusternia.

Just to make a small point about the last page and a half..

In Carnagefiend's FIRST post on the subject, his PRIME example of a game was Whitewolf which is a ROLE PLAYING GAME.

Yes, Treating Lusternia like any old RTS or MMPORG would be bad, but nobody is doing that, rather they are treating this game like a Tabletop Roleplaying game, as we would all hope would be done.

Imagine you set a date to play D&D on Tuesday... but guess what, your friend is sleeping.. You call him up and say hey, its tuesday come over and finish the campaign.

The same is done here, except instead fo tuesday its "anytime a cool thing that I'm interested in benig told about is happening"