So we have a Magnagoran jumping in and out of our territory attacking us. Cutting a long story short, we attack him inside the city, follow him outside when he runs and finish him off, suspect on our party.

He's still attacking us here and there. Runs in again, we fight and kill him, then when he liches and leaves, a few people from the group follow him and kill him again outside. These people then get vengeanced, most of them twice. Seems to be a little problematic with auto-declare inside the city. You auto declare on him, fine, you go outside and you don't have to declare him to fight him because unknowingly you have already declared. No warning. Also this style of hit and run raids, and him getting vengeance on half our defenders doesn't quite seem in the spirit of the avenger system.

That's the problem. The solution being proposed is that if you are doing these hit and run attacks, you aren't safe if you leave the enemy territory for a period of time. People should have free reign to kill you for the length of the autodeclare because you were invading their territory. Seems a fair solution to the unfair situation of this autodeclare. Comments welcome.

Sounds fair. It's lame when people can jump in, kill things, vitae/lich out again, and then get vengeance anyone trying to kill them. They already lose less for dying outside of enemy territory, but if they JUST raided no way is it unfair to kill them right outside as they make their escape. It's been abused, it needs changing. (*sigh* )

Or at the very least get rid of the auto-declare and replace it with a "do not need to declare." I had PK careful on, following the team leader, and didn't see that we had moved outside the city in all the confusion, so I merrily kept on attacking. Next thing I know, I have suspect. So, I get suspect for someone raiding my home town. Yup, makes sense. But I suppose this happens to everybody, so at this point I invoke my own can of Harden the F- up. kthnx.

its easy really, just remember the ff.

Dont let the person leave the area.

If they do get out then dont chase past the border if you dont want to gain status.

If you do chase you're not defending your territory because you're not in your territory.

If you have pk carefull off you will get vengeanced, there is no reason to have it off.

Rauros in this case had his careful on. And although, yes, we could just leave the attacker to exit the city, it seems like this is an area that could probably do with a little improvement, hence the idea.

It seems fine to me really. Why is there a need to chase past borders?

Also pk careful has nothing to do with suspect status.

Just keep up pk careful and you'll never get vengeanced, whatever the situation, don't really see a problem at all, you chased him out didn't you?

There are many problems with the declaring and avenger system, but this isn't one.

Honestly, if they get away, then they get away. It's not like you don't SEE yourself step outside the city/commune to go after the person. The point of defending against someone raiding is to repell their attack, to defeat them on your territory or force them to retreat, which you have done. If you decide to follow an enemy into neutral territory to kill them, then you fall under Avenger.

It's hard enough to see some things in combat spam, let alone "you follow so and so". I agree sometimes all you need to do is chase people away, but when they're jumping in and out, there's little you can do. The proposed change isn't a difficult one and would help to alleviate the problem, as well as others.

I was following someone and didnt know they had left the city. We were in heavy group combat, coupled with the usual lag I get with dialup and Lusternia. So I probably missed the part where we moved.

Angel heres another point of view.

Raiding is terribly difficult as is, because the defender has a lot of advantages. Of course this is normal as it is the defenders home advantage but the last thing we need to make raiding harder yet again is to extend some of these advantages over neutral territory.

The problem with jumping in and out of territory can be addressed by preventing the person from jumping in or out not by moving out of the area to chase said person. It is called sealing off the exits or fortifying the entrance.

But it does have to do with the Declare system, which was the entire point of my first post. I never declared on you outside the city, but I still got suspect. That's where the problem comes in.

Aye, I realise this, raiding is indeed difficult and troublesome. Raiding in this manner though, in my opinion, shouldn't be allowed. Sealing the exits weren't available, nor was any fortifying possible. We couldn't actually do anything to prevent the attacker leaving. Hitting and running seems solely designed to accumulate suspects and vengeances.

No, Rauros. The problem lies in you not seeing that you left your territory. This means you have to pay more attention. Your assumption that you gained suspect because you were defending your territory is wrong based on the fact that you were no longer in your territory.

Having pk careful on is good and if you had previous suspect it would have stopped you from gaining vengeance.

I think we're getting a little from the point here. We know that we got suspects and vengances for following you out. We're proposing this to minimise of harvesting of suspects in this manner since it could be abused. We've stated our opinions, I would like to see more people commenting over time.

If he attacks you in territory, he auto-declares. It's the same thing as off-plane, I think.

Wait, why does that seem like a bug is somewhere in there?

You have pk careful, which is supposed to not let you attack in a way that brings suspect. You assault someone in your borders, which is considered ok, and they leave. If you follow them, shouldn't pk careful, by spirit, block your attacks since hitting them NOW will cause suspect/vengeance?

Thus another solution would be to just pk careful be more...careful: if the enemy leaves and you rush out then pk careful should NOT let you attack. Then you can leave hit and runs be since the defenders can do their job without being half paniced about the borders.

PK careful doesn't stop suspect. It just stops vengeance. The same thing happened to me defending Paavik a while back. I got suspect from this...exploitation of the rules, and then PK careful prevented me from getting vengeance status when a second attack caused the same thing to happen.

That and also I was left inside the city at the time when Rauros killed Alger outside, and because I had been attacking Alger inside, but he died outside, I got vengeanced :S

There's one exception, if someone bleeds out just after leaving enemy territory.