A growing trend

by Unknown

Back to Common Grounds.

Tsuki2005-07-26 10:26:39
If they're utterly confused and can't understand what to do, it's immediately obvious, and you can adjust your teaching accordingly. Start with higher expectations, though, don't begin by appealing to the lowest common denominator.
Unknown2005-07-26 10:33:28
Oh I do. Sorry my post wasn't very clear, I meant that if I need to go OOC I take it to tells and instruct them that this is where OOC questions should be asked, if and when they need to be, then continue to train them.
Roark2005-07-26 10:39:28
When I taught novices, I would do the IC RP description with the OOC bluntness in parantheses or brackets. Like...

"First thing you want to do is slay the rat with your Occultism magics . Once you have slain the pest, pick it up and give it to Ashtan's old ratman ."

I think it emphasizes that it is not part of my character's actual tells while not hiding from them the info they need to quickly get accustomed.
tarik2005-07-26 12:54:39
QUOTE(Shorlen)
...they do not come to this game expecting a roleplaying experience - they come expecting a hack and slash game where they can talk about lvls and xp and hp and bashing stuff.

Bashing is a huge part of this game, much as it is with other IRE games, and there will be players who are attracted to the game because of that in the same way that others come to experience player combat or politics etc. It's right you should expect them to stay IC, but you have to remember that hack and slash muds are probably the most popular, so it's likely your true newbies are more familiar with that style of game.

QUOTE(roark)
When I taught novices, I would do the IC RP description with the OOC bluntness in parantheses or brackets.

That's a good way of doing it, although I am slightly surprised that no IRE game has yet evolved an OOC channel for precisely that purpose. It may be that before Lusternia the amount of RP has generally been so low that it wasn't needed...

Unknown2005-07-26 13:43:07
Getting more real newbies would be great for the game.

In the guilds Im in the two biggest things that drive true noobs away are not being included in events or being outright ignored by senior members. Many of the guilds will have 5 or more people on but nobody even speaks to the novices.

Second thing is the heavy shackles some guilds strap their noobs with in the form of idiot requirements and the ever popular gag nazis which every guild has.

People dont start out as full fledged nazis however, they work their way up from being novice brownshirts who tell other novices HOW to say things and generaly gripe about OOC vs IC chatter. They then graduate to the gag nazi ranks upon attaining any guild rank at which point they mostly just want the novices to shut up and do what they are told while acting like they care about the guild. After being a nazi for awhile and if they are successfull enough within the guild to become a leader they graduate to the rank of sonderkommando and become a true blight upon the guild they are in by driving away fistfull after fistfull of novices.

In true irony these morons are usually the most talkative on the guild channels but any disenting or joking by lower members that is not Stazi approved is squashed or picked apart for seditious undertones......because after all, all newbies are spys or alts anyhow right? So why let them have a voice at all and grow up to challenge the powerbase?

Yes...much better to just ignore them and let Lusternia die than God forbid let people speak.
Unknown2005-07-26 13:59:51
QUOTE(Delver @ Jul 26 2005, 08:43 AM)
Nazi references, more Newbie Rights championing.  A bunch of other mindless drivel.
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This has officially become a debate, Ladies and Gentlement. ...July 26, 9:43 AM Eastern time. We have our first Nazi reference.
Shiri2005-07-26 14:01:57
I'm sorry, Delver, but I have never seen anyone more paranoid over this issue than you are. I can't remember the last time I saw a post from you that wasn't either this or a similar complaint about "nazism" with regards to Celest's former policy on keeping their commodity shop closed.
The guilds' states with regards to members in general and novices in particular are fine. Seriously.
Unknown2005-07-26 14:19:27
There are two different kinds of newbies. True newbies who have never played a mud before and newbies who have never played an IRE game before.

When I first started mudding, I didn’t know anything about mudding. I didn’t know how to talk on the newbie channel, how to walk, or even talk. I ended up starving to death because I didn’t know I needed to eat and drink. Lusternia solved most of that problem with the intro. When I started Lusternia, only thing I didn’t understand at first was how to talk on the guild novice channel.

If you treat a newbie who has never played a mud before the same as if they had, you will run them off!
Unknown2005-07-26 15:07:34
Well, no offence to the folks who wrote the direction to the Tower for the Moondancer novices to follow because they obviously went to a lot of effort to write realistic directions, but I think it IS a little hard to follow for new members. Especially for someone who’s only knowledge of how to move about is what they learned in the ten minutes the intro took. I've read through them and I know that if I were really, really new, I’d feel overwhelmed and completely hopeless of actually finding the tower. Now, granted I’m not the smartest individual in the whole wide world, but new folks should prolly be given a bit more direct instruction so early on.
Shiri2005-07-26 15:20:49
I must say I never liked those obscure directions, and thinking back I can't remember how I ever made it through that. I'm always horrible with directions until I've been practicing them for several months. I'm glad I only ever had to go to the tower, like, once.

The bloody secret exit doesn't help.

My fault for never bringing it up, though...not sure why I didn't, now. I hate obscure directions. sleep.gif (Don't hurt me, Skyla!)
Estarra2005-07-26 15:48:07
I think it's a mistake to be evasive or cryptic when dealing with true newbies. I think they do need to be spoonfed basic syntax, etc. This has nothing to do with the type of player they'll be (i.e., RPer or hack-n-slasher or whatever); rather, at this point in their experience in Lusternia, they need to figure out the basic commands to manipulate objects, communicate with others, and how to use their skills, spells or weapons. If figuring out even these commands becomes an exercise in frustration, the true newbie may view those around him or her as condescending, elitist, or unhelpful, leading to the true newbie feel ostracized and isolated. Thus, they leave the game and we'll never know what their character would have blossomed into.

Believe me, you really can't figure out what type of player a person will become based on how they go about learning the basic mechanics of gameplay. That said, there are other ways to encourage roleplaying. Nothing goes further than leading by example. If those around a true newbie are roleplaying, or are simply immersed within the world, then they'll more than likely pick it up.
tarik2005-07-26 15:50:18
QUOTE(Delver)
In the guilds Im in the two biggest things that drive true noobs away are not being included in events or being outright ignored by senior members.

I would agree with that. It's been my experience so far that few people are genuinely welcoming of new guild members, and that if you want to be included in things then you really have to push for it. Of course that's a lot harder to do if you are not already experienced in Lusternia or other IRE games.

QUOTE(Ye of Little Faith)
This has officially become a debate, Ladies and Gentlement. ...July 26, 9:43 AM Eastern time. We have our first Nazi reference.


Yeah perhaps it would be less emotive if all references to Nazi were replaced by Blacktalon laugh.gif

QUOTE(Morta)
When I started Lusternia, only thing I didn’t understand at first was how to talk on the guild novice channel.


I remember a new novice incurring the wrath of a senior guildie because he wouldn't respond to him on GNT right after joining. Of course all he needed was to be told how to actually speak on the channel.
Nyla2005-07-26 16:09:44
QUOTE(tarik @ Jul 26 2005, 10:50 AM)
Yeah perhaps it would be less emotive if all references to Nazi were replaced by Blacktalon  laugh.gif
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So we want to destroy the world... sue us



Grrrr... second half of my post.

Most novices leave the druids because they have the Achaean druid mold in their head, and they think they can get a grove and mudsex all day and be pacifists. Once they realize they cant they leave.
Shorlen2005-07-26 19:23:50
QUOTE(AmajoS @ Jul 26 2005, 11:07 AM)
Well, no offence to the folks who wrote the direction to the Tower for the Moondancer novices to follow because they obviously went to a lot of effort to write realistic directions, but I think it IS a little hard to follow for new members. Especially for someone who’s only knowledge of how to move about is what they learned in the ten minutes the intro took. I've read through them and I know that if I were really, really new, I’d feel overwhelmed and completely hopeless of actually finding the tower. Now, granted I’m not the smartest individual in the whole wide world, but new folks should prolly be given a bit more direct instruction so early on.
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How recently have you read them? I rewrote them two months ago, and Tsuki rewrote them a month ago. 90% of our novices make it there on the first try, and feel a strong sense of accomplishment in doing so. We offer aid, and I at least watch with Thirdeye to make sure they're not getting lost and taking wrong turns. If they don't get there the first time, I tell them to start over, and I follow them that time to make sure they don't go astray, pointing out when they have made a wrong turn. I also find that, even though the Tower is very far away from our Nexus and the path rather complicated, our novices never ask us a second time how to get there, and easily know where to go to learn their skills from our guild tutor.

I do think Roark's method is quite a good compromise though. The next time I come across a 'true newbie,' I will certainly try it smile.gif
Unknown2005-07-26 19:31:58
I looked at them just last night. And, yes, I imagine the ones who follow the directions and get to the Tower do feel a great sense of accomplishment....because it's hard. They're not BAD directions...they're really quite realistic and good, if you already know how to move about int he game and all. But for someone really really new, I just think they're a bit too difficult. Yes, some prolly are able to follow them and feel very good about themselves for solving the puzzle, but the ones who see it and feel discouraged and give up and quit...might have turned out to be really great people to play with if they hadn't been overwhelmed right off the bat like that.

But then, it might just be that I know that back when I was a complete MUD newbie I wouldn't have been able to follow the directions without a great deal of frustration and prolly wouldn't have stayed around. But as I've already said, I'm not claiming to be the brightest bulb in the house.
Tsuki2005-07-26 20:01:18
I don't think I rewrote GHELP SEEKERS after you did, Shorlen. I've been working on others, but I'll add it to my list to scrutinize for ways of making it more obvious without sacrificing the tone I suppose. closedeyes.gif

If newbies don't know how to move at all, though, they really needed to go through the introduction. And we do keep an eye on them. If they don't respond to their welcome on GNT, I'll generally check where they are and send them a tell if they haven't moved. If they don't respond to that, I'll go track them down in person.

The majority of Seekers, who are either newbies here or good impersonators, do better at finding the Tower than I did. Took me a half hour to figure out how to use the portals to get to the Mother Moonhart, where the path started, and then I went way too far east on Alabaster road, all the way to the bridge. So yes, there are difficulties perhaps ... but if someone refuses to take the time to read something in such an environment where so much has to be discovered by reading, recognizing/understanding what's being read, and paying attention to details, they're going to end up frustrated later on as well. And perhaps more frustrated because they'll have put more time into it by then. Better they find out quickly if the environment doesn't appeal to their preferences.

Oh, and just so no-one's tempted to go start a Moondancer novice simply to read our directions, here:
CODE

-ghelp seekers

Composed by: Skyla
Composed on: 2005/07/02 04:48 GMT



.--------------------------------------------------------------------.
|<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>|
|<>.--------------------------------------------------------------.<>|
|<>|                                                              |<>|
|<>|                                                              |<>|
|<>|                    THE GRAND GRIMOIRE                        |<>|
|<>|                       Upon Arrival                           |<>|
|<>|                                                              |<>|
|<>|                                                              |<>|
|<>.--------------------------------------------------------------.<>|
|<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>|
.--------------------------------------------------------------------.

 

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-more

Welcome, Seeker, to the Moondancers! May the light of Mother Moon guide
your path from this day forward. Your first task as a member of the Moon
Coven is to make your way to the Moondance Tower, where you can be
trained in the ways of the Moondancers.



            ======================================
            1. Directions to the Moondancers Tower
            ======================================

Your journey will begin at the Ring of Portals, not to be confused with
the Portal of Fate. Once you've arrived at the Ring of Portals, read the
signs, and make your way to the Mother Moonhart Tree, the Serenwilde
Nexus of Power.

Now that you've reached the Mother Tree, head northward along the
curving path, turning slightly to the east and west as needed, until you
reach the Alabaster Road. From the road, walk east a bit, until you find
the first path leading north and into the forest.
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-more

Once you've entered Northern Serenwilde, travel westward until you reach
an area of loose soil. Here, the entrance to the tunnel under the moon
river is hidden, but lies to the northwest. Enter this hidden
northwestern tunnel, and continue northwest until you reach a thin
forest trail. From here, make your way to the northeast until you find
yourself beneath a huge cliff. Climb up the path to the top of the cliff
and walk east along the path. When you've found yourself by the falls,
go north and touch the symbol of the Moon to enter the Moondance Tower.


                   =====================
                   2. Introduce yourself
                   =====================

When you've completed this journey, let us know you've arrived at the
Tower. Using the 'GNT' aetherwave, you can simply say: 'GNT Hello! I've
made it to the Moondance Tower.' At this point, a Moondancer will join
you in the Tower and give you your beginning lessons.

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It's long. *sigh* Many of our things are long, but we've got so much our index is intimidating enough. I'm more inclined to break the files down more, but then that adds to the index length. The "header" is a recent-ish addition, because it's something that others have been working on for quite awhile. Adds to the length ... closedeyes.gif
Unknown2005-07-30 14:00:15
QUOTE(Delver @ Jul 26 2005, 09:43 AM)
Stuff about Nazis
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You know, when I mention Nazi-ism, my posts get taken to the "shower room" for "delousing". *eyeshift*.

But he's got a point. There are some people like that. Or at least people who leave that impression. Using a reference or comparison that some might find objectionable gets a certain point across very well. There are still nazis, it's a real and present mentality. What I mean is, there are some people in game and in the real world that carry on thinking "There's only 1 way to do something and that's my way, cos everyone else is wrong and only I know what's right and what's best and anyone that gets in my way or disagrees might as well die, or I'll kill em."

When I'm dealing with a complete newb, I'll have an ooc discussion with them just to figure out how much they already know and understand of the syntax and stuff. I also often point people to the common help files that exist for almost anything and everything. People react to you better and are more willing to help if you treat them as a friend rather than some know-nothing worm that's wasting your time. You really don't know who's on the other end of that character at first, and for all you know, it could be someone who grows to be immersed and in love with the world and will want you as a mentor and might buy a few hundred creds. Friendly encouragement to get involved in this way just benefits everyone on multiple levels, and I'm sure most people would readily agree. I'd rather have a whole bunch of kids who are totally new to mudding and open and willing to learn and play in a comfortable environment than just a few experienced elitists who are only desperate to trans out their skills so they can go pwn people.
Syrienne2005-07-30 18:04:25
I know the Ebonguard is growing nicely. I think we've done a good job of supporting our novices so far, Xenthos is the best. Every guild wishes they had a Xenthos who is willing to literally spend hours talking to Novices and helping them out.. because who knows when the next Daevos is that little novice who might have been blown off. Plus some ideas we're hatching about training our novices in combat is going to be another big step.
Unknown2005-07-30 21:41:39
who knows whether that novice in fact isn't Daevos who decided to come and help Glomdoring? ninja.gif

But aye, I think we're doing quite ok lately.

Oh and, maybe I should mention that there's very few things I consider more insulting than being called a whatever-nazi. So, maybe be a tad less generous with applying this term?

QUOTE
what roark said
aye, I think that's a good way to do it. I usually try to do something like that too, unfortunately zmud doesn't like me using brackets of any kind in my talking at all. *smirk*
Shorlen2005-07-30 21:48:52
QUOTE(David @ Jul 30 2005, 05:41 PM)
who knows whether that novice in fact isn't Daevos who decided to come and help Glomdoring? ninja.gif

But aye, I think we're doing quite ok lately.

Oh and, maybe I should mention that there's very few things I consider more insulting than being called a whatever-nazi. So, maybe be a tad less generous with applying this term?

aye, I think that's a good way to do it. I usually try to do something like that too, unfortunately zmud doesn't like me using brackets of any kind in my talking at all. *smirk*
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Double parentheses are godly *sagenod*