Murphy2005-07-31 06:03:28
yeh i did suggest this a while ago.
narsrim, while i agree we are kind of "like" assassins in a round about kind of way...sorta, its not the same.
With the assignment of targets, then we become more like assassins looking after our own members than just being able to kill freely without losing karma.
For instance, I go kill laysus for being a goose, you don't think he's a goose and thusly you take on his suspect, so you can come after me.
Now you may succeed or fail, but its gone through RP more than hardcoded oh i'm getting cursed how lame.
furthermore if I'm being a problem child, and just not dying or running away from all the other champions, your divine can lock me in a room (at his disgression, after a few warnings) totally locked up, unable to move or talk and let the victims have their way with me for a few minutes, cause me big XP loss or make me do something else that is RP
If i don't play along, then peace/shrub/other admin punishment, as a last resort.
I feel the hardcoded controls on "greifing" and other things that is making the less combatitive in nature leave, is affecting the bigger players making them want to leave.
narsrim, while i agree we are kind of "like" assassins in a round about kind of way...sorta, its not the same.
With the assignment of targets, then we become more like assassins looking after our own members than just being able to kill freely without losing karma.
For instance, I go kill laysus for being a goose, you don't think he's a goose and thusly you take on his suspect, so you can come after me.
Now you may succeed or fail, but its gone through RP more than hardcoded oh i'm getting cursed how lame.
furthermore if I'm being a problem child, and just not dying or running away from all the other champions, your divine can lock me in a room (at his disgression, after a few warnings) totally locked up, unable to move or talk and let the victims have their way with me for a few minutes, cause me big XP loss or make me do something else that is RP
If i don't play along, then peace/shrub/other admin punishment, as a last resort.
I feel the hardcoded controls on "greifing" and other things that is making the less combatitive in nature leave, is affecting the bigger players making them want to leave.
Shiri2005-07-31 06:13:50
Question, when was the last time anyone was karma-cursed or avengered anyway? I don't think anyone will say I am inactive in combat, but I only have two suspects (both of whom have been good enough not to curse me, even though Veonira really should have) and no bullies.
Xavius2005-07-31 06:25:59
Actually, Faytte has vengance on me because of a poison-induced loophole. It'll be used. 
Narsrim2005-07-31 06:35:19
Murphy,
I think what bothers you about karma is that everyone can in some shape-or-form hurt you if you hurt them. I say hurray to karma because that was the freakin point!
Furthermore, roleplaying institutions to deal with player combat are as flawed if not more so karma could hope to be. Some institutions are assumed to be aggressive and "murderous." Magnagora, for example, could fall into this category. Therefore in similar circumstances with someone from Serenwilde, it is far easier for you to validate why you killed someone for a quote "RP reason."
Second, it takes a lot of man power to handle these sorts of things. This same man power cost be used to do something productive instead of reading whinning (and seriously, who wants to do that?). Plus, there is always a point where to stop the swams of issues, some general rules have to be set down. These rules are no more "roleplay" than karma. I would even argue they are less so.
Finally, people abuse these systems at any given chance. For example, let us assume that it was generally accepted that insulting someone gave them a right to attack you. Define insult. What is "enough" of insult for this to be the case, but what are examples of "possible insults" where there would be exceptions. In sum, it becomes a tangled, bias mess of crap. No thanks.
I think what bothers you about karma is that everyone can in some shape-or-form hurt you if you hurt them. I say hurray to karma because that was the freakin point!
Furthermore, roleplaying institutions to deal with player combat are as flawed if not more so karma could hope to be. Some institutions are assumed to be aggressive and "murderous." Magnagora, for example, could fall into this category. Therefore in similar circumstances with someone from Serenwilde, it is far easier for you to validate why you killed someone for a quote "RP reason."
Second, it takes a lot of man power to handle these sorts of things. This same man power cost be used to do something productive instead of reading whinning (and seriously, who wants to do that?). Plus, there is always a point where to stop the swams of issues, some general rules have to be set down. These rules are no more "roleplay" than karma. I would even argue they are less so.
Finally, people abuse these systems at any given chance. For example, let us assume that it was generally accepted that insulting someone gave them a right to attack you. Define insult. What is "enough" of insult for this to be the case, but what are examples of "possible insults" where there would be exceptions. In sum, it becomes a tangled, bias mess of crap. No thanks.
Murphy2005-07-31 06:56:06
Meh imperian's system works fine so I hear, can't speak from experience.
Karma hurts me, very good so what? It's hurting the game more than anything, instead of shooting the ideas down, how bout putting some energy into figuring out how it COULD work. There has to be a better way.
And I really dont care enough to argue the point with you, we're just tossing idea's around, i'm on the verge of quitting anyway.
Karma hurts me, very good so what? It's hurting the game more than anything, instead of shooting the ideas down, how bout putting some energy into figuring out how it COULD work. There has to be a better way.
And I really dont care enough to argue the point with you, we're just tossing idea's around, i'm on the verge of quitting anyway.
Shiri2005-07-31 07:01:19
QUOTE(Murphy @ Jul 31 2005, 07:56 AM)
Meh imperian's system works fine so I hear, can't speak from experience.
Karma hurts me, very good so what? It's hurting the game more than anything, instead of shooting the ideas down, how bout putting some energy into figuring out how it COULD work. There has to be a better way.
And I really dont care enough to argue the point with you, we're just tossing idea's around, i'm on the verge of quitting anyway.
Karma hurts me, very good so what? It's hurting the game more than anything, instead of shooting the ideas down, how bout putting some energy into figuring out how it COULD work. There has to be a better way.
And I really dont care enough to argue the point with you, we're just tossing idea's around, i'm on the verge of quitting anyway.
159013
Actually, from browsing their forums it USED to work, but it's devolving into Achaea's "issue-every-time-you-die" thing. They're complaining about it lots. Imperian's system, that is.
I mean, how many kills have you made, and then how many karma curses have you been hit with after that? And THEN how many karma curses you had to put up with for more than like an hour have to had? Even AFTER all that I'd rather be karmacursed for 24 hours than disfavoured. And yeah, I only have 2 suspects and I fight a lot. And die a lot. Eh.
Murphy2005-07-31 07:03:44
Its not that it happens to me, its the possibility of it happening and its happened in the past.
If i went around, taking contrats on people's suspects, I'd soon be cursable at a cost of 5 karms and have a longish suspect list, with each curse costing 100 to remove, I can expect t be cursed 3 times at a cost of 300 karma to remove straight away.
yay
If i went around, taking contrats on people's suspects, I'd soon be cursable at a cost of 5 karms and have a longish suspect list, with each curse costing 100 to remove, I can expect t be cursed 3 times at a cost of 300 karma to remove straight away.
yay
Narsrim2005-07-31 08:34:09
QUOTE(Murphy @ Jul 31 2005, 03:03 AM)
Its not that it happens to me, its the possibility of it happening and its happened in the past.
If i went around, taking contrats on people's suspects, I'd soon be cursable at a cost of 5 karms and have a longish suspect list, with each curse costing 100 to remove, I can expect t be cursed 3 times at a cost of 300 karma to remove straight away.
yay
If i went around, taking contrats on people's suspects, I'd soon be cursable at a cost of 5 karms and have a longish suspect list, with each curse costing 100 to remove, I can expect t be cursed 3 times at a cost of 300 karma to remove straight away.
yay
159018
You'd only get cursed if you were dumb enough to take hits on people who quest like mad. Last time I checked, people who quest like mad don't tend to be avid PKers (a few exceptions, but this holds true most of the time). Thus, I sincerely doubt you are going to find yourself with a hit on a murderous thug who likes to relax from his massacres by questing.
However, if you decided to take hits on people who probably did nothing wrong, you are probably going to encounter those karma curses a lot more. People who have no desire to fight rarely need karma blessings... so it just accumulates and accumulates. Plus, they view their karma as a saved weapon just in case something do go foul. I swear Murphy, you are the poster child for karma if there ever was one.
Unknown2005-07-31 09:36:40
For those of you who were saying they wanted less power and more commodities from their villages, I just thought I'd point this out.
QUOTE
10.3.2 GOVERNING STYLE AND POLITICS
Syntax: POLITICS
    POLITICS
The leaders of cities and communes may select among three styles of
governing: Benign, Neutral or Despotic. Each of these types affects how
villages under their sphere of influence behave. See VILLAGE INFLUENCE.
Further, while communes have only one type of political government and
that is the "commune" type, cities may select from one of three political
structures: Religous, Commercial, or Conquest. Because of the great
impact this has on the city, the entire ruling council must be in
agreement for a change of political structure. Again, the type of
government affects the way villages behave while under a city or
commune's sphere of influence.
The most noticeable difference between different political structures is
the variation on city rank titles and names of the cities themselves.
Names of both cities and communes are somewhat affected by the political
style of the leader.
While these are some cosmetic differences, the real impact comes from the
behavior of villages under a city or commune's sphere of influence. The
difference between governing styles and political structures are noted
below.
Governing Styles
----------------
Benign   : A benign leader rules influenced villages liberally, and
       does not make heavy demands upon them. As a result,
       villages are generally very happy under this leader and
       will stay under that city or commune's sphere of control
       for a much longer period than normal. However, such
       villages will produce significantly less power to the
       nexus and tithe substantially fewer commodities.
Neutral  : A neutral leader rules evenhandedly, and there are no
       benefits nor penalties to this style of rule.
Despotic  : A despotic leader makes heavy demands upon villages, and
       villages will producely signficantly more power and tithe
       substantially more commodities. Villages, however, may not
       appreciate this style of rule and will reject the city or
       commune much more quickly than it might otherwise.
Political Structures
--------------------
Commune  : This is the only political structure available to communes.
       Villages under communes produce evenly among commodities
       and power, and generally will remain under a commune's rule
       for a long period of time.
Religious : Cities choose a religious government when they feel they
       rule by divine mandate. Spiritual matters are more
       important than material, and thus villages will produce
       more power to the nexus and fewer commodities.
Commercial : Commercial governments are much more preoccupied with
       material wealth than spiritual matters, and villages under
       these governments will tithe more commodities but produce
       less power.
Conquest  : Governments of conquest are neither concerned with
       spiritual matter nor material wealth. They prefer to rule
       others for the sake of expanding their territories.
       Villages under these governments will stay under its
       influence for longer periods of time than for religious or
       commercial governments.
NOTE: The above styles and political structures have nothing whatsoever
to do with 'alignment' (good, evil otherwise) and should not be taken
into account by city or commune leaders as limiting their selections. For
instance, it is perfectly reasonable for a city of light and goodness to
choose a despotic style of leadership when there is a crisis and the city
needs extra power or commodities (the city leader may feel that it is
time for all citizens to make a "sacrifice for the good of the state").
Likewise, it is perfectly reasonable for a city of darkness and death to
choose a benign style of leadership in order to maintain control of its
territories (the leader may feel that it is important to keep villages
under its sphere of control as long as possible and therefore the city
must "keep them happy" and rule benignly to "protect their own").
Syntax: POLITICS
    POLITICS
The leaders of cities and communes may select among three styles of
governing: Benign, Neutral or Despotic. Each of these types affects how
villages under their sphere of influence behave. See VILLAGE INFLUENCE.
Further, while communes have only one type of political government and
that is the "commune" type, cities may select from one of three political
structures: Religous, Commercial, or Conquest. Because of the great
impact this has on the city, the entire ruling council must be in
agreement for a change of political structure. Again, the type of
government affects the way villages behave while under a city or
commune's sphere of influence.
The most noticeable difference between different political structures is
the variation on city rank titles and names of the cities themselves.
Names of both cities and communes are somewhat affected by the political
style of the leader.
While these are some cosmetic differences, the real impact comes from the
behavior of villages under a city or commune's sphere of influence. The
difference between governing styles and political structures are noted
below.
Governing Styles
----------------
Benign   : A benign leader rules influenced villages liberally, and
       does not make heavy demands upon them. As a result,
       villages are generally very happy under this leader and
       will stay under that city or commune's sphere of control
       for a much longer period than normal. However, such
       villages will produce significantly less power to the
       nexus and tithe substantially fewer commodities.
Neutral  : A neutral leader rules evenhandedly, and there are no
       benefits nor penalties to this style of rule.
Despotic  : A despotic leader makes heavy demands upon villages, and
       villages will producely signficantly more power and tithe
       substantially more commodities. Villages, however, may not
       appreciate this style of rule and will reject the city or
       commune much more quickly than it might otherwise.
Political Structures
--------------------
Commune  : This is the only political structure available to communes.
       Villages under communes produce evenly among commodities
       and power, and generally will remain under a commune's rule
       for a long period of time.
Religious : Cities choose a religious government when they feel they
       rule by divine mandate. Spiritual matters are more
       important than material, and thus villages will produce
       more power to the nexus and fewer commodities.
Commercial : Commercial governments are much more preoccupied with
       material wealth than spiritual matters, and villages under
       these governments will tithe more commodities but produce
       less power.
Conquest  : Governments of conquest are neither concerned with
       spiritual matter nor material wealth. They prefer to rule
       others for the sake of expanding their territories.
       Villages under these governments will stay under its
       influence for longer periods of time than for religious or
       commercial governments.
NOTE: The above styles and political structures have nothing whatsoever
to do with 'alignment' (good, evil otherwise) and should not be taken
into account by city or commune leaders as limiting their selections. For
instance, it is perfectly reasonable for a city of light and goodness to
choose a despotic style of leadership when there is a crisis and the city
needs extra power or commodities (the city leader may feel that it is
time for all citizens to make a "sacrifice for the good of the state").
Likewise, it is perfectly reasonable for a city of darkness and death to
choose a benign style of leadership in order to maintain control of its
territories (the leader may feel that it is important to keep villages
under its sphere of control as long as possible and therefore the city
must "keep them happy" and rule benignly to "protect their own").
Gregori2005-07-31 12:03:13
QUOTE(Kidaen @ Jul 31 2005, 03:36 AM)
For those of you who were saying they wanted less power and more commodities from their villages, I just thought I'd point this out.
159036
Commune : This is the only political structure available to communes.
Villages under communes produce evenly among commodities
and power, and generally will remain under a commune's rule
for a long period of time.
So that means 50% of the Orgs are SoL.
Alger2005-07-31 12:20:14
Actually theres a point that kalo is missing. The mag quests are harder than the celest quests. Yes it may seem it tries to balance it, since despite the difficulty difference we do win these battles more often. Though this assumption fails to recognize the fact that we also try harder at these quests because they are harder. We arent going to sit down here and let them raise Marilynth or give you the breathing space to even think about it. We are going to pound them hard as an opponent who is on the ground will actually hit me less and that becomes very important if they can hit us harder than we can hit them. Prevention, is the whole idea of the best defensive is a good offensive.
Devris2005-07-31 12:35:42
QUOTE(Gregori @ Jul 30 2005, 09:00 PM)
Instead of bringing in a whole new system, make this an aspect of the Champions. If one of my little druids gets killed and they have suspect, they can petition me as Champion of Hartstone to intercede on their behalf. This would remove the suspect status, giving me a "contract" against said person and I can go out and bleed on someone's boots. It keeps the RP there, it makes Champions have something more than a figurehead position. Rescue is grand but more often than not the people needing rescue either do not call for help or are in the wrong guild at the wrong time to be rescued.
158941
The problem with this theory is, death means little to nothing here in Lusternia as far as the upper fighters go. In Achaea, you hire an assassin...they die...the assassin usually brings you the corpse or offers...they pray and lose exp.
Here, there are so many ways to rez yourself immediately and lose nothing more than 2-3% which is almost nothing. Some people will easily take that tradeoff quite a bit, but the karma system has pretty much eliminated mindless PK on the basis of people ARE scared of being cursed. I haven't seen a single jumping on spectre island in a long time (just using that area as an example), when before karma was put in...people got jumped there all the time. I got jumped in the desert doing absolutely nothing back in the day, since then, only killed in villages or raids. I find it kind of nice to have it restricted without needing an attorney to fish through pages of PK rules.
Daevos2005-07-31 14:03:29
Kidaen, I know all about the government styles, and some people don't want to change the way they are perceived, the name of the organization, and titles of their citizens for more comms. Increased comms weren't really the main point of the suggestion, the idea was to find beneficial and cost-effective ways for organizations to use their power, so that it is always treasured.
Malicia2005-07-31 14:12:36
I don't understand why we'd actually need a marksystem in Lusternia. In Achaea, land of issues, I can understand the need for it. It works there. Not every aspect of every other game in IRE belongs in Lusternia. Lusty is MUCH more unique.
Torak2005-07-31 15:57:58
Erm Nejii I got cursed twice. I dont' this karma works right to be honest. Yes maybe I deserved them for going into enemy territory to stop the ship for dropping, and maybe I deserved it for killing someone who I assumed was after Ladantine. Or maybe not..I don't think so personally, but thats just me. Personally I don't think champions should be the only ones who can take contract type things, it still leaves the average player like me with being screwed over and doesn't address the real problem of "Does this person deserve it? Are they in the wrong with what they are doing and should they be punished for it? ect ect". Karma doesn't take into consideration any conditions surrounding it. Thus I consider it a broken and flawed system. I have proposed a bounty hunter type system before, and some supported it. This was just when Karma was invented though, if anyone is intrested in seeing what it is now I will gladly post it.
Unknown2005-07-31 16:05:28
QUOTE(Alger @ Jul 31 2005, 07:20 AM)
Actually theres a point that kalo is missing. The mag quests are harder than the celest quests. Yes it may seem it tries to balance it, since despite the difficulty difference we do win these battles more often. Though this assumption fails to recognize the fact that we also try harder at these quests because they are harder. We arent going to sit down here and let them raise Marilynth or give you the breathing space to even think about it. We are going to pound them hard as an opponent who is on the ground will actually hit me less and that becomes very important if they can hit us harder than we can hit them. Prevention, is the whole idea of the best defensive is a good offensive.
159065
Mm, I thought that went without saying. Perhaps, perhaps not. However, it is a rare occasion Celest honestly does these quests anymore. Twice the Sea Battle was happening within a month, and Kalo told Celest - the general reaction was "Oh that's cool. This is what you do, enjoy!"
Murphy2005-07-31 22:10:55
QUOTE(Narsrim @ Jul 31 2005, 06:34 PM)
You'd only get cursed if you were dumb enough to take hits on people who quest like mad. Last time I checked, people who quest like mad don't tend to be avid PKers (a few exceptions, but this holds true most of the time). Thus, I sincerely doubt you are going to find yourself with a hit on a murderous thug who likes to relax from his massacres by questing.
However, if you decided to take hits on people who probably did nothing wrong, you are probably going to encounter those karma curses a lot more. People who have no desire to fight rarely need karma blessings... so it just accumulates and accumulates. Plus, they view their karma as a saved weapon just in case something do go foul. I swear Murphy, you are the poster child for karma if there ever was one.
However, if you decided to take hits on people who probably did nothing wrong, you are probably going to encounter those karma curses a lot more. People who have no desire to fight rarely need karma blessings... so it just accumulates and accumulates. Plus, they view their karma as a saved weapon just in case something do go foul. I swear Murphy, you are the poster child for karma if there ever was one.
159028
Dude, you're at it again
post something constructive and tell me how it COULD work, or suggest a change yourself.
Burying your head in the sand saying everything is fine, is hurting the game and causing a lot of bigger players to leave.
If you even READ my proposal, you'd see that taking a hit out on someone would require that they be a bully on a guildmate's list (or an allies list), hence they have done something wrong.
I don't go around randomly killing people, and I don't have a large suspect list, so how am I a poster child again?
Really, please post something new, or construcitve
Veonira2005-08-01 20:52:02
Actually Mextar cursed me when I killed him before. So then I tricked him into teleporting me and killed him 
.
The only reason I killed him for cursing me (and shouting about me, AND talking crap about me on market) was because he started the conflict and continuously threatened me and threatened to kill me, then I kill him and he curses me. I mean seriously.
. The only reason I killed him for cursing me (and shouting about me, AND talking crap about me on market) was because he started the conflict and continuously threatened me and threatened to kill me, then I kill him and he curses me. I mean seriously.
Devris2005-08-01 21:01:57
QUOTE(Murphy @ Jul 31 2005, 05:10 PM)
Dude, you're at it again
post something constructive and tell me how it COULD work, or suggest a change yourself.
Burying your head in the sand saying everything is fine, is hurting the game and causing a lot of bigger players to leave.
post something constructive and tell me how it COULD work, or suggest a change yourself.
Burying your head in the sand saying everything is fine, is hurting the game and causing a lot of bigger players to leave.
159213
How has karma hurt the game more than it has helped. I don't know many fighters who left because of it, and I can count a ton of folks who came back to Lusternia once the rampant PK had calmed down. The system did what it was intended to do, so why do people need to post ideas to change it? It stopped rampant PK and keeps it confined to situations where it is required, and if you choose to PK at other times..get ready to face the consequences. It's great. I can actually hunt with karma in place and not worry about getting killed by someone else. If they do jump me...will they get the kill?...yes, but I will get a little payback later. You still get plenty of PK in the game, as evident by the number of times I've been killed in village influencing. We don't need to break it open even more, or you WILL see a stream of people leaving. Look at the threads about too much conflict, why on gods green earth would we touch karma at this point?
Murphy2005-08-02 00:16:05
I know a heap of fighters who have left, or gotten bored and left.
At the moment, a lot of fighters have nothing really to DO, the champion of the guild is really just a figurehead, with the ability to rescue.
All I want is the ability to take on someone elses suspect, and use it to kill someone who has gotten on the bully status of one of my guildmates, is it that much to ask?
In return for this, I want to be able to be jumped at any time, by anyone, it makes things much more interesting for those of us that way inclined, and doesn't add to the rampant pk problem
At the moment, a lot of fighters have nothing really to DO, the champion of the guild is really just a figurehead, with the ability to rescue.
All I want is the ability to take on someone elses suspect, and use it to kill someone who has gotten on the bully status of one of my guildmates, is it that much to ask?
In return for this, I want to be able to be jumped at any time, by anyone, it makes things much more interesting for those of us that way inclined, and doesn't add to the rampant pk problem
